Shot on the Run

[DemonAtheist]

can you manyshot on the run?

can you use shot on the run while running?

is there anything unbalanced with allowing manyshot with daggers and shuriken?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

can you manyshot on the run?

Not by the RAW, but the RAW are stupid.

Manyshot requires a "standard action." Shot on the Run can be used with an "attack action." The Sage has ruled that even though an attack action is a sub-category of standard action, they're not equivalent for this purpose.

It won't break anything to ignore the ruling, though.

can you use shot on the run while running?

This one's much more clear cut. No. "Run" is a full-round action, and Shot on the Run -- and any other attack -- requires an attack action.

is there anything unbalanced with allowing manyshot with daggers and shuriken?

Probably not.


Jeff

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Not by the RAW, but the RAW are stupid.

Manyshot requires a "standard action." Shot on the Run can be used with an "attack action." The Sage has ruled that even though an attack action is a sub-category of standard action, they're not equivalent for this purpose.

It won't break anything to ignore the ruling, though.

I agree with the RAW, in this case. I don't see any reason to allow archers to jump out from behind cover, fire multiple arrows, then jump back behind cover and be completely protected. Spring Attack doesn't allow multiple attacks. Ride-By Attack doesn't allow multiple attacks. There's no reason why Shot On the Run should be any different.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Manyshot requires a "standard action." Shot on the Run can be used with an "attack action." The Sage has ruled that even though an attack action is a sub-category of standard action, they're not equivalent for this purpose.

Not only does that follow the rules perfectly, but Andy Collins (who wrote the Manyshot feat) said that he worded it that way (standard action) specifically to prevent it working with Shot on the Run.

-Hyp.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Spring Attack doesn't allow multiple attacks. Ride-By Attack doesn't allow multiple attacks. There's no reason why Shot On the Run should be any different.

Well, maybe because it's not Shot on the Run that would be allowing multiple attacks, but rather Manyshot, which is specifically modelled as "one release of the bowstring, more than one arrow." If there were a feat that allowed more than one attack with SPring Attack -- like, I dunno, say, Cleave? -- then it would be entirely possible to get more than one attack with a Spring Attack.

Manyshot is not a powerful feat. Allowing a combo with Shot on the Run is perfectly balanced.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If there were a feat that allowed more than one attack with SPring Attack -- like, I dunno, say, Cleave? -- then it would be entirely possible to get more than one attack with a Spring Attack.

Certainly... because you're using the Attack action with a melee weapon.

But something that allows multiple melee attacks as a standard action (rather than the specific Attack action) - like, say, the Sword and Fist Weapon Master's Ki Whirlwind - shouldn't work with Spring Attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Manyshot is not a powerful feat. Allowing a combo with Shot on the Run is perfectly balanced.

Obviously, I disagree. And so, it seems, does the creator of the feat.

 

[Scharlata]

Not only does that follow the rules perfectly, but Andy Collins (who wrote the Manyshot feat) said that he worded it that way (standard action) specifically to prevent it working with Shot on the Run.

-Hyp.

Hi!

Just to back up Hyp here (even if he doesn't need that, mind you ), here's the Q+A from the FAQ (3.5):

Q: Can other feats like Precise Shot and Rapid Shot be used in connection with Manyshot?

A: Precise Shot, yes; Rapid Shot, no. The latter requires the full attack action, and using Manyshot is a standard action.

Kind regards

 

[Darklone]

... I do assume that the author already had Greater Manyshot in his head... allow G-Manyshot with Shot on the Run and you know why it isn't allowed.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

But something that allows multiple melee attacks as a standard action (rather than the specific Attack action) - like, say, the Sword and Fist Weapon Master's Ki Whirlwind - shouldn't work with Spring Attack.

Just to back up Hyp here (even if he doesn't need that, mind you ), here's the Q+A from the FAQ (3.5):

I guess you guys missed it when I said, way back in the first response on the thread:

Manyshot requires a "standard action." Shot on the Run can be used with an "attack action." The Sage has ruled that even though an attack action is a sub-category of standard action, they're not equivalent for this purpose.

So, yeah, I know what the rule is and why, as I thought I pretty clearly demonstrated in the post above. (BTW, Scharlata, you cut-and-pasted the wrong FAQ.)

Obviously, I disagree [that allowing Manyshot with Shot on the Run would be balanced]. And so, it seems, does the creator of the feat.

Yeah. This is the guy that didn't realize that Saves and BAB progressed following a simple equation, right?

... I do assume that the author already had Greater Manyshot in his head... allow G-Manyshot with Shot on the Run and you know why it isn't allowed.

I'm not familiar with Greater Manyshot. (Is it epic?) If Greater Manyshot's a problem with Shot on the Run then Greater Manyshot should be balanced, perhaps by disallowing use with Shot on the Run (and perhaps in some other way). But destroying balanced synergy between two so-so feats because of a possible future feat is silly.

In all seriousness, do y'all's non-ranger players even bother with Manyshot? There're so many better archery feats out there; just about the only way to make effective use of Manyshot is Shot on the Run. I have the min-maxing-rules-torturer of all time at my table, playing an archer, and he won't touch the feat.