Should a Paladin be allowed to have ranks in Bluff?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Of course a paladin can Bluff. Don't tell the bad guys, but that whole "Paladins do not lie" thing is just PR given out by the Society for the Advancement of Paladins (SAPs).

Could have fooled me, with it being in the core rules and all.

 

[FireLance]

In which book was that? I thought I had them all, but apparently there's one I am missing...

I think it was in Interesting Times. I can't find my copy of the book, so I can't confirm it.

Carrot directly lied in Men at Arms, near the end of the book. He is not a paladin.

Are you referring to this exchange:

Vimes stared at the coffin. And then a strange feeling came creeping over him, as insidiously as the rain trickling down the back of his neck. It wasn't exactly a suspicion. If it stayed in his mind long enough it would be a suspicion, but right now it was only the faint tingle of a hunch.
He had to ask. He'd never stop thinking about it if he didn't at least ask.
So as they were walking away from the grave he said, "Corporal?"
"Yessir?"
"No-one's found the gonne, then?"
"No, sir."
"Someone said you had it last."
"I must have put it down somewhere. You know how busy it all was."
"Yes. Oh, yes. I'm pretty sure I saw you carry most of it out of the Guild..."
"Must have done, sir."
"Yes. Er. I hope you put it somewhere safe, then. Do you, er, do you think you left it somewhere safe?"
"I think I must have done, sir. Don't you? Seeing as no-one has found it. I mean, we'd soon know if anyone'd found it!"

Or perhaps this one:

The Patrician stood up and limped over to the window. It was dusk. Lights were being lit all over the city.
With his back to Carrot, he said, "Tell me, captain... this business about there being an heir to the throne... What do you think about it?"
"I don't think about it, sir. That's all sword-in-a-stone nonsense. Kings don't come out of nowhere, waving a sword and putting everything right. Everyone knows that."
"But there was some talk of... evidence?"
"No-one seems to know where it is, sir."
"When I spoke to Captain... to Commander Vimes he said you'd got it."
"Then I must have put it down somewhere. I'm sure I couldn't say where, sir."
"My word, I hope you absent-mindedly put it down somewhere safe."
"I'm sure it's... well guarded, sir."

The implication of these two scenes is that Carrot hid the gonne (primitive but effective gun) and the evidence that he was really the King of Ankh-Morpork somewhere, and he isn't about to tell anyone where. Not his superior in the watch, and not the Patrician of the city.

I'm not going to split hairs about what is lying and what is simply being evasive, but in my view, Carrot avoided telling outright lies by using words such as "No-one seems to know", "I must have put it down somewhere", "I'm sure I couldn't say where." Even the answer of "No, sir" to the direct question of "No-one's found the gonne, then?" is technically truthful. No-one had found it after Carrot hid it.

It is possible to avoid giving away information when you don't want to without telling a lie, or even allowing your enemies to come to an incorrect conclusion by telling them nothing but the truth. I will admit that doing so is more difficult than telling outright, direct lies. Some may conclude that this requires paladins to be Lawful Stupid. On the other hand, I see it as a challenge.

 

[jerichothebard]

I can't see why a Paladin could not have any ranks in Bluff.

I mean, besides its use in combat, Bluff is also used in opposed checks vs the other person's Sense Motive. Just because your a Paladin doesn't mean you have to be an open book. I know if I were a champion of just causes, I wouldn't want the BBEG to have any advantage over me because I couldn't keep my game face. Besides, in terms of lying I think its all a matter of circumstance. You don't keep the Paladin from using a sword because he -could- kill an innocent so you shouldn't keep the Paladin from lying just because he -could- lie to one as well.

Well said. I think that about sums it up.

And in answer to RangerWicketts question, the Paladin smites the holy living heck out of the Lich, and never looks back. No Atonement needed. Thou shalt not suffer evil.

At least, that would be the ruling in MY campaign.

jtb

 

[Kemrain]

Another answer to RW's question:

Depending on the GM there are two results, but only one course of action. The Paladin destroys the Lich, for it is the only sensable thing to do. If this breaks the Paladin's code, then so be it. No Paladin should be above sacrificing their power for the sake of Good, and if their Code prevents them from doing what is right, then their code must be broken. Destroying that Lich and saving lives is important, not remaining a Paladin while doing it.

I think a Paladin should be able to lie, as long as no one is harmed by it. As long as Good is served, the truth can be obscured from evil, and that isn't even an unlawful thing.

- Kemrain the [Evil].

 

[Klaus]

Here's a bit of dialogue from Mas of Steel miniseries (1986). Superman has gone to Gotham to aprehend the vigilante called The Batman. As Supes announces it to Batman...

Batman: Stop! Use your infrared vision on me!

Superman does so and notices a field surrounding Batman.

Batman: This field detects supercharged organisms, i.e. you! If you touch me, a bomb will go off and kill an innocent man!

Superman: You fiend! You would risk an innocent man's life?!?

Superman agrees to help Batman track down a burglar named Magpie. After Magpie is locked up in Arkham and Batman prepares to leave...

Superman: Wait! You still have to account for that bomb you set up to kill an innocent man!

Batman: Oh, yes! (reaches into utility belt) Here it is.

Superman (dumbfounded): You had the bomb with you this whole time?

Batman: Yes. It was the only way to stop you without lying.



So, Paladins + Bluff = Yes. But the use of the skill has to be monitored.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The thing about Batman, of course, is that he lies all the time. The only reason he didn't want to lie to Superman is he knew Big Blue could detect it if he did.

It's still a good example of a non-lie, though.

 

[Remathilis]

Remember, there is a difference for lying and stretching the truth. A paladin can learn to use sweet talk, veiled threats (do it or I'll turn you in to the authorities), and even misdirection, as long as its working toward the greater good.

Out and out lying, esp for selfish purposes, leads to the darkside.

 

[Umbran]

While paladins are not supposed to lie, that does not mean they should be required to give the entire truth whenever they are asked. And Bluff can be used against Sense motive so that the questioner does not know the Paladin is withholding information.

Plus, there's lies and then there's lies. A lie told for greedy ends is one thing, and might be a major infraction of the code. A lie told to protect the life of a 5 year-old girl is probably another kettle of fish altogether.

Mark Twain once said that the best way to tell a lie is to tell the truth, but make it sound like a whopper. Depending on the individual DM and code, this may also be allowed to Paladins - speak the literal truth in such a way that the listener thinks it's a joke or sarcasm:

Gaurd: Halt! None may bring weapons into the Evil Lord's presence!
Paladin: Why not? What, you think I'm foolish enough to try to lop off his head with all these guards around?

No lie told at all, but still requires bluff.

 

[Sejs]

*nod* what Umbran said.

Evil Guard: Halt. Before I allow you entrance to the citidel, I must question you, by order of Lord Evil Von Naughtybad. Are you, or have you ever been, a paladin?

Paladincognito: Tch, don't be ridiculous. Everyone knows of Lord Naughtybad's reputation. If I was a paladin, do you think I'd want to be anywhere within a hundred miles of this place?

Evil Guard: *blows his Sense Motive check* Heh, good point. Okay, go on in.