dave2008
Legend
Not an issue for me as I don't use CR. I don't have a problem making challenging encounters at 15th level or when we played at 20th level. But I don't have extensive experience at high levels.Level 15 is still tier 3 though. It's not quite as crazy as levels 17+. The issue with challenging players is that it's tough to create challenges that are "tough but fun". The CR rules work okay at lower levels but rapidly break down at higher levels. If you go even further beyond into levels 21+, things just get even more difficult.
The only issue on the player side, IMO, is the non-proficient saves. And that is easy to solve with an "epic" PC rule: At 21st level and above players add half their proficiency bonus to all saving throws, or something similar.I'm not just talking about monster ACs and saves. I'm talking about player saves. If you have to start changing the system so that it works, how do you imagine WotC publishing epic levels when they're already so reluctant to make changes to the published rules? It just sounds like a huge hassle.
PS: I've already stated I don't want them too or expect them too publish epic levels.
Sure, that is always an issue with epic play - what do you fight. There are many ways to handle it that would have to be addressed in any "Epic Level Handbook," but Mythic Monsters from Theros are a good template to make existing monsters more challenging. I've even started a thread for that (check out Mythic Tiamat): 5e Mythic Monster UpdatesAlso, what's an "epic monster"? CR 30 tarrasque is a fine challenge for level 18 PCs. What's the CR 40 creature?
As I stated above, I don't see WotC doing an epic guide. However, if one plays epic games the assumption should be they are going to be a bit more difficult to DM than standard games. That should just be expected IMO. Additionally, I do think printing swarms and hordes would be a good option, it is what I plan to do. I've already made a decent template: 5e Hardcore Monster Manual: Fiends , check out the Vargouille Swarm (CR 20), Imp Swarm (CR 21), and Lemure Horde (CR 9) for the concept. It would be fairly easy to make a mob of giants or similar.The problem with CR 10ish "mooks" is that you have to resolve more actions, since they do more attacks. They can also have spells that you have to keep track of. It's much more complex to run six stone golems or young red dragons than it is to run six goblins. But if you go epic, you're supposed to use these CR 10+ creatures as the supporting cast, in the way you use CR 1/2 creatures at level 10. Or is WotC going to publish swarm versions of stone golems and young red dragons? I don't see it happening.
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