Should Familiars, Animal Companions, and Paladin Mounts have the elite stat array?

[Michael Tree]

In the improving monsters section, it says "Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite." Familars, Animal Companions, and Bonded Mounts are all very unique, and often not very survivable, so should their attributes be given the elite array?

 

[FrankTrollman]

There's a problem here. Namely that the elite stat array really only has much effect on creatures with human (or higher than human) statistics.

Familiars have a lot of 2s on their character sheet (some of which get replaced by static numbers) - and it really doesn't change much when you plug in an 8 or an 18. That's problematic, to say the least. If you put a "6" in a squirrel's strength score it doesn't actually change the modifier from putting a 14.

Familiars and Paladin Mounts should get an elite stat list - but they should also only roll for their non-fixed stats. Otherwise they end up with stats which are too good - as their lowest rolls get lost in stength and intelligence where the low roll doesn't matter and the high stats go into Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom where the effect is obvious.

So 4d6 four times - arrange any way you want in Charisma, Constitution, and Wisdom.

-Frank

 

[The Souljourner]

Your reply baffles me, Frank. How does a squirrel with 6 strength not have a different modifier than a squirrel with 14 strength. Will one not be able to pick up something much more heavy than the other? Will one not get a bonus to hit in melee where the other gets a penalty? I don't understand your assertion at all.

Also, how does a paladin's mount's strength not matter? They get a bonus to it from the paladin's level, but if a horse starts with 6 strength, it's gonna have a problem carrying much of anything.

-The Souljourner

 

[Artoomis]

Familiars, et.al., should have their own unique stats based upon the MM stats. That is, use the MM stats to find calculate the modifiers to the rolls or point-buy.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Your reply baffles me, Frank. How does a squirrel with 6 strength not have a different modifier than a squirrel with 14 strength. Will one not be able to pick up something much more heavy than the other? Will one not get a bonus to hit in melee where the other gets a penalty? I don't understand your assertion at all.

-The Souljourner

That was exageration for effect. Actually a 6 and a 14 are different - but a 6 and an 11 are not. Because the Squirrel with a "6" in strength has a strength of one. A Squirrel with an 11 in strength also has a strength of one. Different rolls get the same value.

The Strength value matters for almost everything - but for very weak creatures the Strength Roll does not.

And that's why familiars should roll less stats than people - their Intelligence and Strength are essentially fixed and the roll doesn't change them enough to warrant caring what the stat placement is.

-Frank

 

[The Souljourner]

Oh oh oh. Ok. I get it. A squirrel's racial strength penalty is so large that it almost doesn't matter what you roll on 4d6, it'll still suck.

Sorry, wasn't comprehending. While I agree that intelligence obviously shouldn't be rolled since it gets set at a fixed value, you could have strength be an individual roll that can't be moved around, then you might end up with a squirrel with 10 strength, and wouldn't that be amazing! What's the carrying capacity modifier for being tiny?

-The Souljourner

 

[Legildur]

Artoomis is right in referencing the MM. Somewhere in there it says that to work out the ability modifiers for the base creature, you subtract 10 from even ability scores and 11 from odd ability scores.

So, with the base array, you can work out the 2's for the creature as fairly hefty penalties to that stat (for animals, usually Int at -8).

I took the elite array for my Druid's wolf animal companion and put the 15 into Dex - to up its AC (and survivability, particularly when it picks up Evasion).

DM hasn't complained...yet.

 

[FrankTrollman]

So, with the base array, you can work out the 2's for the creature as fairly hefty penalties to that stat (for animals, usually Int at -8).

Um... no. For creatures with a stat penalty there is a chart which prevents them from getting negative scores and also retards the growth of the stat if they roll high. The net result is that a very low roll is not going to reduce the base score very much - and a very high roll isn't going to raise the stat much.

Net result: the roll is so negligible that it becomes a "dump stat" for min/maxxing purposes. It's like allowing players to roll six stats when playing a Lich.

-Frank

 

[Celtavian]

re

I let my players roll as if making a henchmen. I like the idea of extraordinary familiars, mounts and animal companions. It fits my literary idea of how they should be.