Should I use the Class Skill system?

[MichaelK]

I've got to admit I never actually used the class/cross-class skills system with D&D. However I was wondering if I was ignoring something useful.

The title basically says it all, should I use this system? If so why? (If not, I'm interested in hearing why you don't think I should use it too).

One reason I can think of is for prestige classes entry requirements, but I already look at the requirements and if they couldn't legally get into the class with their class levels if we had been using class/cross-class skills then I'll be a lot less likely to say yes. (I still might though if it doesn't seem too broken to allow it... I treat entry requirements more like guidelines anyway).

What other reasons is it good for?

 

[Ahnehnois]

(I still might though if it doesn't seem too broken to allow it... I treat entry requirements more like guidelines anyway

Class skills as a whole I think are more like suggestions. Rogues ought to take Bluff, Hide, UMD, etc. Fighters ought not to. Wizards should have knowledge, Barbarians should be morons. At least, those are the attitudes behind the class skill system.

Actually, the main effect of leaving out class skills is to make spellcasters more powerful. If sorcerers can snipe, or if clerics can use arcane wands, or if wizards can diplo, they become more versatile.

On the whole, I doubt losing class skills means all that much.

 

[Sylrae]

The class skill system kindof sucks. You pay double for cross class skills, and you have to pay the costs based on what the class skills of the class youre in the middle of taking levels in are.

I use a different system. Class skills still exist, but the mechanics are different.

1. All skills cost the same amount.
2. Class skills give a +3 competence bonus.
3. Max ranks = Level, instead of Level + 3 (class skills take care of the +3)
4. you can only get the +3 once per skill.
5. You dont get skills x4 at level 1, you dont need it anymore.
--I lower prestige class skill requirements to match the new system. Take the skills they have listed, subtract three from the required score, and keep a minimum of 1 rank.

I use other rules for skills too.
The stats work a bit differently you may want to use some of this.
1. Str is not used to hit anymore. "Weapon Finesse" is the default now. "Weapon Brutality" can be taken for big weapons like 2 handed mauls, to use STR instead.
2. Will saves depend on charisma(Force of Personality), not wisdom.
3. Instead of "Class Listing + int", skills come from "half class listing +1 + int + wis"
This ensures that all of the stats do more than just skills, which charisma never used to.

 

[MichaelK]

1. All skills cost the same amount.
2. Class skills give a +3 competence bonus.
3. Max ranks = Level, instead of Level + 3 (class skills take care of the +3)
4. you can only get the +3 once per skill.
5. You dont get skills x4 at level 1, you dont need it anymore.

Oooh, I like it. Far easier and the results should be pretty much the same.

I use other rules for skills too.
...
This ensures that all of the stats do more than just skills, which charisma never used to.

I can see why you'd do it that way, but it's a bit too extreme of a change for me.

 

[Sylrae]

Your players will probably complain at the smaller numbers, but eventually they'll realize they're actually better at MORE skills, due to the lowered costs.

 

[Sylrae]

another fun thing I do:
stat increases

normally every 4 levels you get 1 point to increase any stat you want.
I give two, but they can't be spent on the same stat. Players tend to like it, but if youre not clear they will try to shove both points into the same stat. lol

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, I'll take the opposing side. I like having class skills. I think it's an important part of class balance that especially in the case of the more powerful skills, only certain classes get them. I was in a game where all skills were class skills. I and all but 1 of the 5 players ended up making full casters (partly due to other restrictions, like no multiclassing at all, making non-casters really look bad). All of us took UMD and Tumble. Cause...why the hell wouldn't you?

I also like the idea that it's just plain harder to learn certain skills for a particular class. A fighter can study arcana, but all his time spent honing his martial skills doesn't contribute much to his understanding of magic. A wizard, just in researching spells and using them, gets that kind of learning synergy that makes knowing the secrets of the arcane easier to comprehend. Furthermore, a Fighter maxing out his knowledge arcana ranks will never be able to equal a wizard ptting all his effort into it, but compared to a wizard who ignores the skill (this is theoretical, I know. No wizard would not take ranks in it, whatever.), he could end up actually knowing more.

All that being said, I do tend be be open to letting PCs ask for different class skills, especially the non-casting classes like Fighter. It's ok, as long as the skills being traded overall seems like a "fair trade" -- A fighter getting Tumble for Climb is not a fair trade, for example -- and it fits the character's theme and is part of a block of skills being traded, rather than some sort of one skill cherry-picking.

 

[Sylrae]

I think with single classes, class skills work okay. But with multiclassing its just a big pain in the ass. You've been training in a skill for a while and you have to pick up a level or two in another class to go for the PrC youve been trying to achieve. Now you have to spend points on a bunch of crap you dont want/need because the ones you want are class skills, and you can't save skill points between levels. You might be able to buyu a rank for double cost, but if it was a class skill before, odds are you have more than the cross class maximum, so you just can't by them.

 

[Greg K]

I like class skills. However, when I DM, I also use

a) character customization per the phb
b) Several of the UA variants
c) the Wilderness/Urban skill trade-offs from the Cityscape enhancement (actually, been doing something similar since 3.0 per #1 above).

What I don't like is the 1/2 ranks.

 

[Herzog]

@Sylrae: How do you handle multiclassing in your system? Do you keep the +3 on skills that are considered class skills for all the classes you have?

also, this is incorrect:

You might be able to buyu a rank for double cost, but if it was a class skill before, odds are you have more than the cross class maximum, so you just can't by them.

When multiclassing, a class that isn't on your current class list costs double, but the maximum is character level +3 for a skill that is on the classlist of any of your classes. (considering you're using a different system, I'm not surprised you missed that, but since others might be reading this I thought it needed correcting)