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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 9154891" data-attributes="member: 53980">Sure, you can't run faster than a human can run while in your car, but you can certainly move faster. I'm looking at it from the perspective of the end result. If you don't want to think of a magic item using fighter as supernatural, that's fine. However, let's consider an explicitly supernatural fighter (they have a hypothetical subclass called Green Phoenix) that can inherently fly. A "mundane" fighter puts on magic boots that also give them identical flight capabilities. The end result is the same (supernatural), right? In both cases, you end up with a flying fighter. It doesn't matter to me whether you think of the first fighter as supernatural and the second as mundane, or both supernatural, or whatever. I honestly couldn't care, and it doesn't relate to anything I've been discussing. If having the latter fighter as an option makes you happier, then I'd be all for including it. I, personally, prefer the former option, but that's just my preference. You can achieve the same end result either way.However, I do believe that if the latter fighter is included, it ought to have some way to acquire those items, beyond DM fiat. The current state of martials is akin to if wizards just got their 1st level spells, and then had to find all additional spells during play. In that scenario, a 5th level wizard who hasn't found any (offensive) spells can still up cast magic missile using a 3rd level spell slot. But I don't think anyone would argue that this wizard with only upcast magic missile is equivalent to a wizard who's learned fireball. As I see it, that's the current state of martials. They are dependent on magic items but have no player facing means to obtain them.Well, one might retort, any halfway decent DM will give the questing wizard fireball, and the martial a magic weapon. Okay, and if they don't? Moreover, is there any benefit for the game to require that of the DM, instead of just automating it via the class design, as with the RAW wizard automatically getting 2 spells per spell level? I don't think it's a good game design choice. Classes should be complete, particularly at high levels. High level martials are incomplete, being significantly reliant on an external power source (magic items), and the distribution of those magic items currently relies on what effectively amounts to DM fiat.I'm not saying that DMs shouldn't be able to distribute magic items. But I am saying that the distribution of magic items essential to a character's completeness should be player facing. There's lots of ways to implement that, from the player chooses an item at X level (insert explanation here), to the player having an ability once per X levels that amounts to my character is going on an adventure and at the end of the adventure he's going to find item Y, to the character being able to craft Y, and plenty more that I haven't touched on. I don't really care about the implementation details as long as it is viable. But I do think it ought to be implemented.</blockquote>

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