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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9156410" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Monks and Clerics are weapon users and I can not remember either of them ever taking GWM or SS in games I play.  I can only remember 1 Cleric taking PAM.Regardless, even for other classes, I don't see that all the time in games I play.  Most players I play with don't take those feats, although some do.  to go a little further, I have seen happy GWM players and I have seen happy PAM players, but to be honest I can't remember a single martial who was happy after taking both of those feats.  Every player I can remember who took both PAM and GWM and played to high level did not have a whole lot of fun with their characters and regretted it as it locked them into very few weapons and very few options to be effective.PAM also eats up your bonus action and reaction if you want to get the most use out of the feat and that clashes with a lot of the class and the better subclass features for Fighters, Paladins and Barbarians.  This is particularly true for some of the more effective fighter subclasses. Some examples PAM conflicts with: Rage, Paladin Smite Spells, 2nd Wind, Giants Might, Stone rune, Shield, War Magic, Rebuke the Violent, Hunters Mark, Fighting Spirit, Vow of Emnity, Unleash Incarnation, Mark attack and others.  It also conflicts with the Bonus Action attack from GWM.  People getting this feat often overlook these things in their build and if they do consider it, then it drives them to limited class and subclass options (typically Battlemaster which is not one of the most powerful subclasses).Finally I note that players playing weapon users in my games have generally enjoyed their characters.  If players at your tables don't generally enjoy playing martials maybe it is in part because they are always picking these feats with those characters?It would seem to me if it doesn't have too many hit points, then the damage from the martials fighting it is not too low.What am I missing here?I used it as an example for math purposes as it is the "normal" at 5th level.  You have to pick a number to actually do the math.  If you think it should be something other than 18 at 5th level let me know what that number should be and I will do the math with that number.</blockquote>

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