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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CreamCloud0" data-source="post: 9163142" data-attributes="member: 7034710">okay, so the base argument was about the capabilities of fighters and how they don't keep up at high levels without relying on supernatural workarounds right? but then you immediately deny the fighter the mere capability to reliably climb things? wow! i wonder why they're not keeping up?i wasn't getting at anything about matching the utility of a wizard or a cleric per-se, just the point you claimed that any high level abilities of the fighter would inherently become supernatural, i was getting at that the fighter doesn't need magic razor wind to match a fireball when they can launch an entire volley of arrows or throwing axes by themselves, personally i see combat as the main point of a fighter so maybe i was focusing a little more on damage then utility, because i expect a fighter to outclass casters in combat.people don't consider goading strike supernatural at all, marking an opponent, but it's basically a taunt for all intents, mechanics and purposes, just give them more capability to do that, and against multiple opponents at once, goading strike is the 1st level spell of a martial's capabilities, only they never get higher level spell slots to 'cast it with' they're stuck with that 1st level spell capabilities their entire campaign, sure the BM maneuvre die goes up but that's only really comparable to a caster increasing their casting stat, what does the 5th level casting of goading strike look like, what does the 9th level casting of it look like? if it was charm person a 9th level goading strike would be able to target 9 enemies, inflicting all with disadvantage when targeting other players if they failed their saves.i think alot of the failings of martial abilities are tied to the fact that well, they need more access to the middleground abilities between the rules for the basic capabilities of adventurers and the 'magic solution', take jumping, the jumping rules are naff, but the only alternatives are the Jump spell, magic items or abilities specific to certain classes/creatures, if you gave all the martials the inherent properties of Jump they'd still feel pretty mundane, cause even if they#re leaping 20ft into the air jumping is mundane and in these kinds of fantasy world we expect some exaggeration of capabilities, then all the other classes have the standard jumping rules but the Jump spell also exists for them, which is the point of it, to make the characters who aren't good at jumping good at it.like i said before, the components for reliable and capable high teir mundane martials exist in the game, you just need to stop all this niche protection and bring them all together so all the martials can be competent, having the same mechanics but in different quantities and manifestations to let them still feel like their respective themes.</blockquote>

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