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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 9163210" data-attributes="member: 23751">That's not at all what I said.  I mean if you're going to give fighters something not at all their thing like climbing in order to keep up, why not flying?  Why not give them the ability to phase through walls?  I don't wonder why they don't keep up because of flying.  That's your Strawman of my argument.  My argument is that you can give them things that allow them to keep up, but it ain't gonna be climbing and jumping.  It's going to be supernatural things or they aren't keeping up.  They're just getting a little bit better and all the same complaints are going to happen.So no fighter is accurately shooting arrows at every creature in a 20 foot radius in under 6 seconds without it being supernatural, let alone throwing axes.  Aaaaand, that's not going to come close to matching a fireball.  8d6 to every creature in a 20 foot radius > than 1d8(maybe) to every creature in a 20 foot radius.So your idea of a high level fighter ability is a far weaker ability than a 3rd level wizard spell.  And it's going to be supernatural in origin even at that.  You might as well embrace the supernatural aspect and go greater than 1d8(maybe, since you have to roll to hit).Wow. Breaking something that long up into multiple sentences will help a lot in understanding what you are saying.Goading Strike is clearly supernatural since it you have to make a wisdom save or have your willpower overcome and be forced against your will to attack the fighter or suffer disadvantage on attacks. If it wasn't supernatural, it wouldn't be anywhere close to reliable.Or not.  Ignoring your Strawman that I claimed it was Charm Person and your subsequent response to the fictional argument, I said it would have to be some sort of mind control to be able to be performed reliably.  There are no mundane words that could ever cause me to attack someone OR suffer disadvantage if I try to punch someone else.  That applies to the vast majority of people, especially strangers for whom the fighter has no known personal information.I don't know what "naff" is with regard to jumping.  There are other alternatives, though, that fighter could get within the rules.  The skill for jumping already allows people to jump farther than their base strength in distance, but it doesn't clearly specify how.  Fighters could get a bonus to those rules and therefore jump farther, and potentially much farther.  However, jumping 20 feet into the air isn't mundane, no matter how mundane normal jumping is.  The world record standing high jump is 5'7".  The running high jump world record is 8'0.46".  Jumping 20 feet into the air 20 feet is quasi-magical.Not only that, but jumping 20 feet or even 100 feet isn't going to solve the issue.  The issue with martials is utility and jumping isn't anywhere close enough to being the kind of utility required.</blockquote>

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