Should multiclass spellcasters be fixed?

[Fenes 2]

Don't hurt me now...

But I was thinking about this problem... and thinking why couldn't we bring back some type of duel-class system such as 2nd edition had?

You could pick your class as Druid/Cleric. You'd level up in both, but you'd need more experience to level up. Thus you might have a party of 4th level characters, but you'd only have enough experience to be a level 3 Druid/Cleric.

Obviously you would only get ONE hit-die, ONE set of skill points, ONE set of BAB and saving throw progressions... but you'd get both sets of class abilities and both sets of spellcasting.

Thoughts?

Oh yes, I was SO missing the old 2E idiocy where you could advance in 2 classes at once and be only one level behind the single classed characters for most of your career... not.

In effect, we already have that system... you need more exp to level up your dual-classed druid/cleric, in a party of 4 level PCs your PC would be a level 2 druid/cleric...

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I voted "yes, other." Honestly, someone can develop a neat character concept that would call for multiclass spellcasting, but due to the weaknesses of that approach, mechanically, the character is not as fun to play when compared to other party members. So my reason is really that of enjoyment, the multiclass caster should be as fun to play as the specialists, or at least when compared to other multiclass combos (fighting classes multiclass extremely well by comparison). Later.

 

[John Hough]

Edit: I also entirely disagree with the original poster's implication that multiclass spellcasters are "weak", and therefore should be made more "useful". Sorry, not the same thing. They're useful already.

Sorry. I intended to make it clear that I want to talk about multiclass spellcasters in terms of how useful they are to the party, not how powerful they are in combat. We disagree on whether they are as useful, but not on the importance of that distinction.

 

[Murrdox]

Oh yes, I was SO missing the old 2E idiocy where you could advance in 2 classes at once and be only one level behind the single classed characters for most of your career... not.

In effect, we already have that system... you need more exp to level up your dual-classed druid/cleric, in a party of 4 level PCs your PC would be a level 2 druid/cleric...

I know I know I know... Duel classing was odd and didn't make ANY sense how it was worked in 2nd edition, and I don't miss it at all.

I just thought it might be interesting to take the BASIC idea behind Duel Classing, and come up with a different system.

BTW... I think multi-class spellcasters are just fine. You sacrifice power for versatility. That's the name of the game.

 

[Azzy]

I voted yes, consistent.

The rules should be consistent AND balanced so that all characters with 20 (or however many) character levels are equally viable regardless of SC or MC. Note the "AND balanced" part--the two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[FireLance]

For those who did not have the chance to play 2e, a little history lesson. The 2e multiclass system worked as follows:

All class advantages overlapped (did not stack). A Ftr10/Wiz10 would have the "to hit" chance of a Ftr10 and the spells of a Wiz10, and would use the best saves of a Ftr10 or a Wiz10. Multiclass characters were supposed to split experience earned between their classes. The problem with this system was that the amount of experience required to gain each level was about twice that of the previous level. As such, a Ftr10/Wiz10 would only be one level behind his "pure class" companions, until about 10th level or so, when each class required a fixed amount of experience to advance. However, many campaigns never made it to that level of power.

3e introduced the concept of "stackability". Now, BAB stacks, skill points stack, hit points stack, base saves stack. Caster level does not. There are flavour reasons why it does not - some would argue that wizard spellcasting is very different from cleric spellcasting, for example.

However, from a game mechanics perspective, spellcasting levels that do not stack result in some fairly sub-optimal combinations. This is a quick calculation that I did over at the WotC boards:

Let's see if I can explain the problem, at least from my perspective, graphically and simply.

Compare a Wiz10 and a Wiz20.

The Wiz10 has about half the spells per day of a Wiz20. Let's say that makes him half as effective as a Wiz20.

The Wiz10 has a caster level half that of the Wiz20. In some cases, it doesn't matter because the spell has no level-dependent variables, he is not trying to affect a spell-resistant opponent, etc. In some cases, it matters a great deal because his spells get dispelled easily or he fails to punch through spell resistance. On average, let's say that it makes him about half as effective as a Wiz20.

The Wiz10 has access to spells of a maximum level that is about half that which a Wiz20 has access to. This means that some of his spells affect one person instead of many people (Charm Monster vs Mass Charm), or cap out at lower damage dice (Fireball vs Delayed Blast Fireball), or are somehow less flexible (Polymorph Self vs Polymorph Any Object). Again, let's say that this makes him about half as effective as a Wiz20.

1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8.

Assuming he is also a Clr10, 1/8 + 1/8 = 1/4.

Unless access to cleric and wizard spells somehow makes him four times as effective as before, I conclude that a Clr10/Wiz10 is mechanically underpowered compared to a Clr20 or a Wiz20.

Naturally, roleplaying can make up for a lot, but being a mechanically underpowered character makes it that much harder.

Even assuming the extra flexibility makes him twice as effective as before, a Clr10/Wiz10 still only has about half the power of a Clr20 or a Wiz20.

 

[Angcuru]

I took the problem into my own hands and made a core class for the only multiclass spellcaster/spellcaster I ever see played, which is the Wizard/Cleric. Basically modified the Mystic Theurge to be not so uberfied. Works nicely.

 

[Technik4]

IMO, multi-classed spellcasters are fine the way they are. Their increase in versatility makes up for their lack of "boom-power" (unless one is playing in a combat-only game, in which they can add their own damn house-rules instead of inflicting it on the rest of us).

I'm not trying to pick on anyone, I just picked this quote out. It seems like this sentiment is around a lot on the boards, and it sort of bugs me.

First, a multiclassed spellcaster is not necessarily an arcane/divine multiclasser. So a Evo/Sor and a Clr/Drd are both multiclass spellcasters, in addition to the more "traditional" clr/wiz, drd/sor, what-have-you.

Second, a multiclassed spellcaster does therefore not necessarily gain much versatility.

Non-Extreme Example:

Clr5/Sor5- concentrating on dual-wielding arcane/divine magics with a minor in turning undead.

Highest Spell Level: Clr3/Sor2
Probable Highest DC: 13/14+spellcasting stat (char has 2)
Spells Per Day (both charts): 11/12/9/3
Spell Penetration: 5+d20 (for either)
"Versatility":
-Casts 9 non-Orisons (assuming 16+ Wis) and 3 domain spells
-Knows 6 non-cantrip Sor Spells

Ok, so we are talking about knowing/preparing 18 "different spells" (not including cantrips/orisons) and being able to cast a meaningful spell 24 times a day.

vs

Sor10- concentrating on whatever

Highest Spell Level: Sor5
Probable Highest DC: 16/17+spellcasting stat
Spells Per Day: 6/6/6/6/5/3
Spell Penetration: 10+d20
Versatility:
-Knows 15 non-cantrips Sor Spells

Ok, so we know 3 less psells but can cast 2 more meaningful spells a day. Not to mention we know 2 more spell levels worth of spells, which in and of itself lends greater versatility. This character can't turn undead and can't heal, but in general situations will be far more useful than the more "versatile" multiclasser.

Extreme Example:

Wiz10/Sor10- ultimate flexibility and versatility!

Highest Spell Level: Wiz5/Sor5
Probable Highest DC: 16/17+spellcasting stat
Spells Per Day (both): 10/14/12/11/10/7
Spell Penetration: 10+d20 (for either)
Versatility:
-Knows 15 non-cantrip Sor Spells
-Preprares 22 non-cantrip Wiz Spells

Alright, this is a 20th level character. I'm assuming they managed to swing a 22 in each spellcasting stat via items or what-not. We're looking at about 37 unique (non-cantrip) spells per day, give or take and none are higher than 5th level. Total Castings: 54

Sor20

Highest Spell Level: Sor9
Probable Highest DC: 20+spellcasting stat
Spells Per Day: 6/8/8/7/7/7/7/7/6/6
Spell Penetration: 20+d20
Versatility:
-knows 34 non-cantrip Sor Spells

Ok once again we are down 3 spell in the unique (non-cantrip) spells per day but with higher level spells comes more versatility/flexibility (inherently). Total Castings: 63 (with a primary stat of 24).

I think its clear that in a basic example a dual caster is behind the curve, and in an extreme example they are not even in the ballpark with a straight caster.

Technik

 

[Emiricol]

Guess I just don't see this as a problem. Jack of all trades better be a master of none IMHO.

 

[Will]

The problem seems rather simple to me.

A Wiz10 is not half the power of Wiz20. Would you send two Wiz10s against a Wiz20 and expect them to come out even?

So a Clr10/Wiz10 is effectively CR 12. More or less. Yaaaay.

A fighter gains BAB, Saves, and HP that help in fighting no matter what other classes you take.

A spellcaster gets jack (for spellcasting) if you take other classes.

This comparison is less valid if one supposes that the abilities on both sides have some sort of dynamic benefit - like Divine Favor and Tenser's Transformation (if you can pull that off). But I don't think there is a lot of option for that.

And to expand on what Technik said... the problem is that even in terms of 'versatility' and breadth of ability, dual classed spellcasters generally loose. A Limited Wish or shadow magic can do a lot more for a wizard's versatility than splitting with a bunch of other caster types.