Should Power Source have greater meaning?

[KidSnide]

If every ower scales by tier, they can become signature powers for the character and that would make classes more distinct.

I'm not sure every power needs to scale by tier. I think there should be some powers (particularly the arcane and divine daily powers that tightly correspond to "spells" in the in-game fiction) that only exist at paragon or epic levels.

However, many or most powers should scale by tier. It would be nice if swapping powers was for fixing things that don't work and not a part of the standard advancement structure. I like the flexibility of replacing one power with a different power that works better. I don't like the idea that characters have to "forget" powers or risk falling behind in effectiveness.

It seems to me that 90% of encounter powers could scale by tier and the game would lose little other than dozens of pages of redundant material.

-KS

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I'm not sure every power needs to scale by tier. I think there should be some powers (particularly the arcane and divine daily powers that tightly correspond to "spells" in the in-game fiction) that only exist at paragon or epic levels.

OK. this is a good idea.

However, many or most powers should scale by tier. It would be nice if swapping powers was for fixing things that don't work and not a part of the standard advancement structure. I like the flexibility of replacing one power with a different power that works better. I don't like the idea that characters have to "forget" powers or risk falling behind in effectiveness.

It seems to me that 90% of encounter powers could scale by tier and the game would lose little other than dozens of pages of redundant material.

-KS

I think here we are in agreement.

 

[Incenjucar]

The way in which they grow powers in the Feywild book indicates that it won't result in fewer powers, just more powers which are clearly a graduation of earlier powers.

Those who fear numbers will still have an ever-growing number to point at.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I doubt any class has anywhere near as many powers as Wizards and Clerics did in previous editions.

Most classes probably have more viable attack powers than Clerics or Magic-users did in 1e. That's not saying a lot - the spell lists in those days encompassed what 4e divides into attacks, utilities, rituals, "why bother," and "hell no."

Thus, Magic Missle, Shocking Grasp, Sleep, Web, Stinking Cloud, Fireball and Lightning Bolt are iconic, memorable spells, not because they're particularly wonderful, but because they were most of the meaningful attack choices a wizard would have for the first 6 levels of his career.

It's worth noting that in Heroes of the Feywild, they have already started creating tiered powers (Lesser X, X, and Greater or True X). It amuses me because I was already doing this in my own work a few months ago.

There were powers in the PH1 that were clearly paragon or epic 'upgrades' of heroic powers, so it's nothing new. The Lesser/Greater/'True' naming convention just saves on names a bit.

Though, honestly, at some point I really started hating 'True.' So often, it's used because a designer, freelancer or DM decides that the way the game handles something is just wrong, so they write up the 'True' version of it. Simultaneously high-handed and lame.

 

[frankthedm]

So, my question is, should power sources have greater meaning within the system?

Absolutely! 4E would have been far more interesting if power sources actively opposed their antithesis. From the birth of 4E Divine and Primordial power sources were set up to clash head to head, with the gods even rigging the whole Alignment spectrum against the Primordial. But then Wotc moved druids away from the Primordial elements to avoid God Vs. Primordial strife from making parties intersting.

 

[vagabundo]

Oh yes.... yesyesyes.

Choosing your class should give you access to power sources and the powers contained therein; fighter gets access to martial PS, paladin gets access to martial, divine PS. Multiclassing gains your a class talent and access to the class power source.

The power sources should have design limits for their powers and a solid thematic link with the mechanics.

And feats should go, replaced by talents in your class and talents in your power source (and in your theme if you want a third pillar).

 

[FreeXenon]

I am really liking a lot of this:

Power Sources with a core set of powers shared by all who have the PS, even though MC.

Class have one or more power sources with which they draw their powers from, plus class specific powers.

Scaling powers and shared powers.

All of which will increase coherency and greatly reduce redundancy and the number of trees killed.

Good Stuff!

 

[Tony Vargas]

Sources shouldn't get /too/ promiscuous. I mean, if a Paladin were flat-out Martial/Divine, then MC'd into Sorcerer, and took a Primal 'Theme,' what exactly is preserving the feel of any of this, it'd be too easy for characters to tap any source - and you might just as well have a single pool of powers with source being wholly flavor text.

OTOH, you could have limitted dipping into one source or another. MC'ing might let you pick and Encounter power of the MC'd in source. A Theme might give you access to a Source's utilities. A Paladin or Barbarian might have Martial at-wills but Divine or Primal encounters & Dailies...

 

[Pour]

I'd definitely like classes with role-specific powers and power sources as large, shared pools- maybe somehow universal, but interpreted through class mechanics to function as a controlling, defending, striking or leading power.

However any more than two sources, and three is the max which I'd rarely allow, would be mud.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

From a simplicity and balance perspective, I wouldn't be opposed to:

1. Start each character with one class, one role, one source. Some powers and/or features tied to each one--but not enough to finish your character. That is, this doesn't give you your full complement of powers and features.

2. Have a feat and/or skill pick part of the system, where, based upon what you pick determines your other classes, roles, and/or sources. Finish your powers and/or features from this new list combined with your base list.

Would be particularly interesting if the second part was geared off of skills. Take a rogue for example. He picks a bunch of rogue, striker, martial powers. If he picks typical rogue skills, he probably doesn't expand his list much, but he will of course round out his power picks from those same lists. He'll be very much a rogue. OTOH, if he picks maybe Nature as a skill, he can get a few picks from the primal list (or druid, ranger, etc.) If he just wants the Nature skill for some other reason, then he can still pick from the original list, and be a rogue that happens to have a good Nature skill.

Skill Focus and Skill Training feats would also grant increased access to the lists. I suppose weapon training would also grant increased access to the martial lists. This might make the characters seem a bit more organic. You take the skills and feats that sound interesting. This gives you access to powers that go with the kind of activities encouraged by those picks.