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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Should races have mechanical effects?
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<blockquote data-quote="GM Dave" data-source="post: 5791941" data-attributes="member: 6687992"><p>There are several ways to look at this question.</p><p></p><p>1> Strictly Heart -- Yes, an elf, a minotaur, and a halfling are different creatures and should act, look, and smell different. Mechanically, there should be differences between them.</p><p></p><p>This is where I have no trouble with 4e giving Minotaurs a charge attack, Dragonborn have a breath weapon, Elves get a re-roll on accuracy. Races are different like fighters and wizards are different in this way. I accept that an Elf with a bow will be slightly better at shooting at range but the Minotaur being able to put a hit on battle and still hold a bow can be almost as useful.</p><p></p><p>2> Trouble with my Heart -- Races often get taken to the extreme. It starts to seem like every race and their cousin can see in the dark. It loses the uniqueness and becomes a disadvantage when everyone can do this and your race choice can not.</p><p></p><p>This is the danger with mechanics is that you can lead to making things just as good as another choice or leave the other choices as poor.</p><p></p><p>4e did this to the crossbow. The crossbow in 4e compared to the long bow fires less distance, weighs more, does less damage, and takes a minor action between shooting. It costs 5gp less to own a crossbow then a long bow (which in game terms is nothing). The crossbow can be used by slightly more classes because it is not a Military weapon.</p><p></p><p>The short bow is rated the same as the crossbow but has no loss of action, weighs less, and can be used by small characters.</p><p></p><p>There is no desire to use a crossbow because anyone focused on such a ranged weapon will choose to use a bow as it is at least as good in every category if not better. You need to take an extra feat to bring the crossbow up to the level of the bow.</p><p></p><p>It is clear by looking at a bow and a crossbow that they should be different but when you leave a choice without a good reason to choose then it becomes a problem.</p><p></p><p>Halflings suffer from this by being listed as small and unable to use certain weapons or use those weapons with a damage bonus. This makes it tough to be a halfling fighter and some people would think that is fine as there should not be many halfling fighters that are standing shoulder to shoulder with humans. 4e does allow some things like halflings to use other characteristics to get around their limitation like the Paladin using Cha and radiant energy attacks.</p><p></p><p>This allows the group to have the player play the race with theme of ability but not have a way to make the option work.</p><p></p><p>3> Reality -- Races become a min/max package to get more for a particular class then another race. This is where so much gets tied up in benefits that it becomes difficult to choose otherwise then a race with class combination.</p><p></p><p>4e suffers from often the same attribute being used for attack and damage bonus. There is usually a secondary attribute that controls your side benefits of powers (slide distance, additional damage). A race that gives a bonus to both of these creates a superior choice (hitting even 5% more often is noticeable over the life of a character and a more damage adds up). A few extras tossed on top like anything hit by dragonborn breath is marked and it really adds up.</p><p></p><p>The min/max interaction grows with additional race books added to a system. If the elf is penalized for being weak then someone will 'create' a fix that has 'Iron elves' from the deep forest that are strong like minotaurs or they will make 'star elves' with everything a regular elf has but extra magical bonuses because they are connected to 'stars'.</p><p></p><p>Players seeing the benefits and slights against a race will then respond with their 'ugly elves' which are described as 'short dumpy elves with beards that like to drink often and wield axes and hold their bows horizontal' because it is the only way to get their dwarf crossbow wielder to be on the equal footing to the elf archer.</p><p></p><p>If the mechanics go against the player then they will either 'fix' the mechanics with an 'improved' race or use the abilities of the improved race and 're-name/re-skin' it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GM Dave, post: 5791941, member: 6687992"] There are several ways to look at this question. 1> Strictly Heart -- Yes, an elf, a minotaur, and a halfling are different creatures and should act, look, and smell different. Mechanically, there should be differences between them. This is where I have no trouble with 4e giving Minotaurs a charge attack, Dragonborn have a breath weapon, Elves get a re-roll on accuracy. Races are different like fighters and wizards are different in this way. I accept that an Elf with a bow will be slightly better at shooting at range but the Minotaur being able to put a hit on battle and still hold a bow can be almost as useful. 2> Trouble with my Heart -- Races often get taken to the extreme. It starts to seem like every race and their cousin can see in the dark. It loses the uniqueness and becomes a disadvantage when everyone can do this and your race choice can not. This is the danger with mechanics is that you can lead to making things just as good as another choice or leave the other choices as poor. 4e did this to the crossbow. The crossbow in 4e compared to the long bow fires less distance, weighs more, does less damage, and takes a minor action between shooting. It costs 5gp less to own a crossbow then a long bow (which in game terms is nothing). The crossbow can be used by slightly more classes because it is not a Military weapon. The short bow is rated the same as the crossbow but has no loss of action, weighs less, and can be used by small characters. There is no desire to use a crossbow because anyone focused on such a ranged weapon will choose to use a bow as it is at least as good in every category if not better. You need to take an extra feat to bring the crossbow up to the level of the bow. It is clear by looking at a bow and a crossbow that they should be different but when you leave a choice without a good reason to choose then it becomes a problem. Halflings suffer from this by being listed as small and unable to use certain weapons or use those weapons with a damage bonus. This makes it tough to be a halfling fighter and some people would think that is fine as there should not be many halfling fighters that are standing shoulder to shoulder with humans. 4e does allow some things like halflings to use other characteristics to get around their limitation like the Paladin using Cha and radiant energy attacks. This allows the group to have the player play the race with theme of ability but not have a way to make the option work. 3> Reality -- Races become a min/max package to get more for a particular class then another race. This is where so much gets tied up in benefits that it becomes difficult to choose otherwise then a race with class combination. 4e suffers from often the same attribute being used for attack and damage bonus. There is usually a secondary attribute that controls your side benefits of powers (slide distance, additional damage). A race that gives a bonus to both of these creates a superior choice (hitting even 5% more often is noticeable over the life of a character and a more damage adds up). A few extras tossed on top like anything hit by dragonborn breath is marked and it really adds up. The min/max interaction grows with additional race books added to a system. If the elf is penalized for being weak then someone will 'create' a fix that has 'Iron elves' from the deep forest that are strong like minotaurs or they will make 'star elves' with everything a regular elf has but extra magical bonuses because they are connected to 'stars'. Players seeing the benefits and slights against a race will then respond with their 'ugly elves' which are described as 'short dumpy elves with beards that like to drink often and wield axes and hold their bows horizontal' because it is the only way to get their dwarf crossbow wielder to be on the equal footing to the elf archer. If the mechanics go against the player then they will either 'fix' the mechanics with an 'improved' race or use the abilities of the improved race and 're-name/re-skin' it. [/QUOTE]
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Should races have mechanical effects?
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