Should Sorcerers have a *unique* spell list like the Cleric or Psion?

[dead]

Me thinks I have to check out Arcana Unearthed one of these days. It seems to get nothing but praise. Is Arcana Evolved replacing AU? In other words, AE is not just a supplement to AU but an actual *revision* with all material reprinted?

Regarding sorcerers having their own 'flavoured' spell lists I am sure Monte Cook has done exactly that in one of the Books of Eldritch Might. You may want to check that out. From memory he has done so for the very same reasons you put in your post dead.

Naw. The Sorcerer in the BoEM just have a different selection of PHB Sorcerer spells. The spells themself aren't unique. At least he's making a step in the right direction, though.

 

[Felon]

Regarding sorcerers having their own 'flavoured' spell lists I am sure Monte Cook has done exactly that in one of the Books of Eldritch Might. You may want to check that out. From memory he has done so for the very same reasons you put in your post dead.Connors

Monte's motivations had much more to do with notions of "balance" than "flavour". He thought with their higher allotment of spell slots, sorcerer's shouldn't get access to spells lime greater invis as soon as wizards do. It didn't do much for me (hell, once casters start getting their hands on wands and staves, their actual spell allotment becomes rather moot), and giving sorcerers 4 skill points/level seems to go against the basic idea.

 

[Tonguez]

Are you saying that each cleric of a different deity would just have a different selection of PHB divine spells? Or, are you saying like what I'm saying: They will literally have uniquely flavoured spells . . . no double ups. Your cleric of Pelor has "Lance of the Sun" while your cleric of Nerull has "Flesh Rot Molestation"? Similarly powered spells but completely different in *flavour*.

I'm dead serious all the time.

For DnD purposes (ie sticking to Vancian magic) I'd stick with the Domains sytem but expand it so that Clerics could ONLY cast from their Domain (ie a unique spell list). And I'd give Scorcerers Arcane Domains based on Heritage (eg Fey-blood, Dragon-Blood, Shadow-touched whatever)

However my real preference would be to change the magic system to one where each Cleric or Scorcerer could in fact create unique spells based on similar mechanics eg The 'Lance of the Sun' and 'Hell-Scorched' might both cause '5d10 fire damage at a range of 25 ft' (albeit one is Good and the other Evi) but the fluff would be entirely different

"A blazing ray of light strikes down from the heavens engulfing your target" vs "the flesh of your target begins to whither as the hellfire burns from within"

 

[haiiro]

Monte's motivations had much more to do with notions of "balance" than "flavour". He thought with their higher allotment of spell slots, sorcerer's shouldn't get access to spells lime greater invis as soon as wizards do.

That's half of it. The other half is that he retooled their spell list around spells that can be cast repeatedly -- eliminating a lot of the weirded "niche" spells that a wizard might use once in a blue moon, but no sorcerer would waste his slots on.

It's a good concept, and Monte's sorcerer is actually a lot of fun to play.

As for the original idea, I'd love to see an alt.sorcerer that uses a hybrid spell list -- some of the staples from the wizard list, without the "named" spells, plus some new ones that are unique to them. Heck, a set of mechanics for "branding" each individual sorcerers spells -- like Spell Thematics, only moreso -- would be pretty cool. I'm thinking of something along the lines of Monte's variable spells from AU.

Without some of the standard spells, though, the sorcerer would lose a lot of punch. Or you'd wind up creating "new" versions of things like fireball, for no real reason other than to be unique.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Yes, sorcerers should have a separate list from wizards. It helps differentiate the two.

 

[Gez]

Clerics have a unique spell list. This gives them *flavour*.

Psions (and the other psi-users) have a unique powers list. This gives them *flavour*.

And one spell list per class gives me *headache*.

Let see...
Arcane spell lists:

• Assassin
• Bard
• Bladesinger
• Harper Scout
• Hexblade
• Maho Tsukai
• Penumbral Lord
• Sorcerer
• Warmage
• Wizard
• Wu-Jen

Divine (religion) spell lists:

• Blackguard
• Cleric
• Consecrated Harrier
• Fiend of Blasphemy
• Holy Liberator
• Hunter of the Dead
• Justiciar of Taiia
• Knight of the Chalice
• Knight of the Middle Circle
• Master of Shrouds
• Paladin
• Sacred Fist
• Sohei
• Soldier of Light
• Spirit Shaman
• Templar
• Temple Raider of Olidammara
• Vigilante

Then there's the divine (nature) spell lists, and the psionic spell lists.

Compare and contrast with Arcana Unearthed, with three spell lists (simple, complex, exotic), a number that will never increase no matter what new classes you add to the game.

I think the number of spell lists should be reduced. I propose three, or four with psionics: Arcane spell list, Divine spell list, Nature spell list, Psionic spell (OK, power) list.

And you stop here. Oh, and please don't do spells that are level 5 for someone and 7 for someone else. Thanks.

 

[Thanee]

While it would certainly be nice, it would just overcomplicate things, as Gez said.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

So, just to point out that Sorcercers aren't just "a wizard who casts spontaneously" (as opposed to preparing spells), I think it would be cool to make a unique, "sorcerer flavoured" spell list. (Kinda like the XPH has psionically flavoured powers that were clearly modelled on existing spells.)

It may be cool but I think it would probably rather have more subtle difficulties than good consequences.

I think this has been done many times on these boards, probably you can find several examples of a Sorcerer spell list in the house rules forum. The ways normally followed when differentiating the Sorcerer spell list from the Wizard's are:

1) add spells from other classes, mostly from the Druid list because adding clerical spells is typically considered "too much"

2) take away spells which seems elaborate, because sorcerer's spellcasting should be instinctive; while it makes sense to think that Magnificent Mansion is probably more popular among wizards, taking spells away from the sorcerer list has no good reasons at all

3) changing some spells' level up or down if the spell looks more/less typical for a sorcerer; this should be a good idea, but it's not easy when most of the spells are placed at the chosen level to be balanced with similar lower/higher spells

If you think that a sorcerer is the only spellcaster (ok, with the bard) who has a hard limit on the number of spells known, shortening the list is a very bad idea (unless you have a campaign reason or a serious balance reason to ditch single specific spells) because it just reduces the difference between sorcerer. You may be trying to make sorcerers more unique, but what you do is making them more alike.

Adding sorcerer-only spell is of course fine. It obviously requires more work but it could be done. Honestly, I wouldn't even be scared of just trying to eliminate the sorcerer spell list altogether and let sorcerers choose the spells learnt from the lists of any full spellcasters (wizard, cleric, druid) but not lesser spellcasters (bard, paladin, ranger). It would open the way for even more diversity among sorcerers, it would make them able to cast a combination of spells unavailable to anyone else, and it would not make them more powerful because the max spells known is still a limiting factor.

 

[Pbartender]

Look up the alternate 'Witch' spell list in the DMG. It does exactly what you propose, Dead... It's an example of a unique spell list for the Sorcerer using appropriately themed spells from the Cleric, Druid and Wizard lists.

 

[Zappo]

I think they could have a different spell list. As for should, eh, I don't know about should. I don't think the game would be any better or worse.

Sorcerers, unlike most other spellcasters, have to "build their own spell list" in the sense that they must choose a small number of spells which they will be able to cast, and they will never be able to cast anything else. So what's the point of giving them a different overall spell list? Each sorcerer already has a different spell list.