D&D General Should you Multiclass?

[CreamCloud0]

just turn all class feature into open feats with level or other requirements

balance it all around full feat power of half-feat power level.

make 2 classes only.
martial and caster.
martials get more feat choices per level and extra attacks at levels 5,9,13,17,

that is not what i am suggesting and also i think it fundamentally fails the task to be multiclassing due to lacking anything resembling actual classes.

there's nothing fundamentally wrong with point buy character building but please recognize some people actually like using classes.

 

[ECMO3]

just turn all class feature into open feats with level or other requirements

balance it all around full feat power of half-feat power level.

make 2 classes only.
martial and caster.
martials get more feat choices per level and extra attacks at levels 5,9,13,17,

So could you still multiclass into a martial/caster?

If not I don't think this is going to work. In modern D&D, "casters" need access to martial abilities and "martials" need access to spells. The desire for this is what drives most of the multiclassing I see now, and I see more of it under 2024 then I did under the old rules.

 

[Horwath]

So could you still multiclass into a martial/caster?

Sure, and what amount you take of those two would describe you as a half-caster, 1/3rd caster, 2/3rd caster or whatever you want.

more spellcasting=less feats and extra attacks and less HPs.

 

[Horwath]

that is not what i am suggesting and also i think it fundamentally fails the task to be multiclassing due to lacking anything resembling actual classes.

there's nothing fundamentally wrong with point buy character building but please recognize some people actually like using classes.

I mean, we can have both.
when you make classes, make sure that every feature is balanced around half-feat/full-feat power.
Then you have a class and you have option for a custom class to be made.

Sure some features would need to be rebalanced IE, padadin's save aura is too powerful even for a full feat, but maybe it can be spread out over few half-feats.

Aura of protection:
6th level:
20ft radius, +1 to all saves
12th level upgrade:
30ft radius: +2 to all saves
18th level upgrade:
40ft radius, +3 to all saves

that is 3 half feats taken over 18 levels.

 

[FrogReaver]

that is not what i am suggesting and also i think it fundamentally fails the task to be multiclassing due to lacking anything resembling actual classes.

there's nothing fundamentally wrong with point buy character building but please recognize some people actually like using classes.

IMO. There is a fundamental problem with point buy. It assumes the value of all abilities is independent of what abilities you have already chosen. It’s not.

 

[Tessarael]

I hate dips also and I would like multiclass to be even split only, but that will leave your with gimped character most of the time.
wizard 5/fighter 6 looks nice as a concept, but is it even close to level 11 wizard or level 11 fighter?

This is one of those builds that is crying out for 3E multi-classing spellcaster advancement. Assuming you take Eldritch Knight for the Fighter archetype, those 6 levels in Fighter should give 2 levels of spellcaster advancement, stacking with Wizard 5 for a total that should be equivalent to Wizard 7.

Likewise in 3E, the Wizard level 5 has +2 base attack bonus, which would stack with +6 form Fighter level 6, for a total of +8. This is moot in the 5E context, as proficiency bonus scaling doesn't work like that. But maybe it is relevant if your DM were to permit the 2nd extra attack at a total equivalent to Fighter level 11. So, if you were say a Fighter 7/Wizard 8, if that stacks as Fighter 7 + 8/2 = 11 total equivalent in Fighter advancement, that's where you'd get the 2nd extra attack.

This is essentially along the lines of what Horwath is suggesting I gather.

More broadly, many evenly balanced multi-classed 5E builds are in need of a better mechanism of keeping them at a reasonable progression in their core combat skills. There are a few that can synergize well, if you build them carefully, e.g., I had a Barbarian 8/Rogue 7 that worked quite well with Strength 20, dual-wielding finesse weapons.

 

[CreamCloud0]

IMO. There is a fundamental problem with point buy. It assumes the value of all abilities is independent of what abilities you have already chosen. It’s not.

i mean, i don't think it's impossible to have something like that in a point buy system, just add a rule that says something to the effect of 'if you already have X number of [warrior/mage/expert/priest] features subsequent [warrior/mage/expert/priest] features will cost Y points less'

unless you're talking more like how spellcasting abilities tend to stack upon themselves? like how magic initiate to learn healing word is far less valuable to a martial who only gets the 1/LR use out of it compared to a caster who now knows healing word and can cast it to their heart's content with their own slots.

 

[FrogReaver]

i mean, i don't think it's impossible to have something like that in a point buy system, just add a rule that says something to the effect of 'if you already have X number of [warrior/mage/expert/priest] features subsequent [warrior/mage/expert/priest] features will cost Y points less'

I think you'd have to go the other way. If you have X warrior features then your next warrior feature costs more. It's very easy to tune the 'more' such that it's almost always better to hybrid, which isn't an improvement either IMO.

unless you're talking more like how spellcasting abilities tend to stack upon themselves? like how magic initiate to learn healing word is far less valuable to a martial who only gets the 1/LR use out of it compared to a caster who now knows healing word and can cast it to their heart's content with their own slots.

Yea, synergistic abilities is usually the cause of abilities not being equally valuable for a fixed point cost. Like the Healing Word for a caster vs healing word for a barbarian example.

Or another example - having extra attack and a +2 damage fighting style vs a single attack and the same ability.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is one of those builds that is crying out for 3E multi-classing spellcaster advancement. Assuming you take Eldritch Knight for the Fighter archetype, those 6 levels in Fighter should give 2 levels of spellcaster advancement, stacking with Wizard 5 for a total that should be equivalent to Wizard 7.

Likewise in 3E, the Wizard level 5 has +2 base attack bonus, which would stack with +6 form Fighter level 6, for a total of +8. This is moot in the 5E context, as proficiency bonus scaling doesn't work like that. But maybe it is relevant if your DM were to permit the 2nd extra attack at a total equivalent to Fighter level 11. So, if you were say a Fighter 7/Wizard 8, if that stacks as Fighter 7 + 8/2 = 11 total equivalent in Fighter advancement, that's where you'd get the 2nd extra attack.

This is essentially along the lines of what Horwath is suggesting I gather.

More broadly, many evenly balanced multi-classed 5E builds are in need of a better mechanism of keeping them at a reasonable progression in their core combat skills. There are a few that can synergize well, if you build them carefully, e.g., I had a Barbarian 8/Rogue 7 that worked quite well with Strength 20, dual-wielding finesse weapons.

Doing that you quickly end up with multiclass characters are always better. One thing I can say about 5e multiclassing is that for the level 1-20 progression it's very rare to be able to say that the single class character isn't better than some multiclass combo for at least some levels in that range, usually alternating to some degree.

 

[Tessarael]

Doing that you quickly end up with multiclass characters are always better. [..]

That wasn't my experience with 3E and 3.5E D&D. There were strong multi-classed builds, but there were also strong single-classed builds, particularly single-classed spellcasters, as damage scaling with higher level spells was stronger.

It is more of an issue in a system where high-level single-classed characters get sparser benefits before some capstone. I think that's a broader problem in 5E and D&D 2024, where they appear to have intentionally slowed down the relative scaling of power and damage output at higher levels. As an example, between the 2nd extra attack at Fighter level 11, and the second action surge at Fighter level 17, there's very minor improvement in damage scaling - extra HP, another use of Indomitable to improve your chance of saving, etc., but nothing like the damage scaling that is seen between level 1 and 11.

In this sense, I think 5E and D&D 2024 are a bit lackluster at high levels, which may be one of the reasons contributing to less high level play. It also makes some folks more inclined to multi-class by that point, as levels 1 to 3 are particularly rich in new class features that improve a character's versatility.