Shuriken vs. Hand Crossbow: What's the Point of Shuriken?

[Fusiox]

Hello, all!

Before we begin: No, this is NOT a question about holding shuriken in your off-hand, and has NOTHING to do with what sharp, pointy things you can hold while you hold other sharp, pointy things in your off-hand. I'm good with that

My question is: what's so special about shuriken? And why are they "Superior Weapons?"

I play a Drow rogue (my DM has rejected MP/MP2 for cost and simplicity reasons--the other four members are newbies, good on them--so don't worry about Sharpshooter Talent), and my Rogue (forcibly) has Rogue Weapon Talent. I know that RWT bestows a magical d6 bonus to shuriken, and a +1 AB to daggers, thrown or swung.

But what's so special about shurikens?

Shuriken start off as d4 weapons, and seem identical to daggers in base Prof. and Dam. bonus, if inferior due to them being (usually) throwing-only weapons; yet, shuriken normally require a Proficiency feat to be used effectively.

Why would one use a shuriken if they could instead use a hand crossbow (perhaps with Two-Fisted Shooter feat, which makes it off-hand and bestows a ranged basic attack free upon crits, and perhaps with Drow-only Ruthless Hunter, which upgrades the Hand Crossbow to d8 with High Crit), which appears to be superior to the shuriken in nearly all ways? Do shuriken have some sort of special ability that makes them worthy of a Weapon Proficiency feat?

I'm just so confused over whether to use shuriken with Quick Draw or a hand crossbow with TFS and maybe Ruthless Hunter. I'm leaning towards the latter, with mechanical as well as background purposes (the Drow favor a blade & crossbow fighting style), but is there a way for shuriken to redeem themselves, mechanics-wise?

Thank you for reading this. I'm too young to be losing this much hair... I'm a perfectionist when it comes to characters

May you live long, prosper somewhat and ROLL HIGH!

 

[Ryujin]

Shuriken counts as "light blade" so any feats or powers that require that weapon group would apply.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

IMO shuriken aren't worth a weapon proficiency feat for classes that don't have them initially. For those that do, I see two mechanical advantages:

- Using just light blades instead of e.g. a light blade and a crossbow saves you one expertise feat. (There are DMs that give out expertise feats for free, though.)

- As light blades, shuriken are less expensive and have a greater range than daggers. (2 sp vs. 1 gp, 6/12 vs. 5/10)

Apart from that you could argue that shuriken are easier to conceal than a hand crossbow.

 

[DracoSuave]

The ____ Expertise feats are different.

The LBlade allows you to get +1/tier extra damage when you have combat advantage, and the crossbow allows you to ignore cover.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Shuriken are mechanically a bad option. You're better off thrown a dagger. Just raw damage output at level 1 the +4/d4 dagger is as much damage as the +3/d6 shuriken. Assume you will want to hit with your non-at-will attacks and the effects on a hit are at all valuable then the dagger is outright superior. Getting 1 extra range is not a very big deal. Remember, hitting, which means getting SA damage more often than not, really ups rogue damage.

In fact the dagger is really clearly the best rogue weapon in all situations. It is as good as a rapier, better than a shortsword, and probably better than any other melee weapon. The hand crossbow overall wins out as a secondary weapon based on the fact that it gives you a better range and damage. Even so the rogue in my latest group almost never bothers to go to the trouble of breaking out the crossbow, preferring the benefits of wielding 2 weapons.

 

[DracoSuave]

Unless you're a thief.

Then Rapier, at +4/1d8, wins over any other melee weapon for ya.

And if you're a ranged rogue, Sling wins out over hand crossbow simply by removing opportunity attacks from ever happening to you through Sling Expertise.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Unless you're a thief.

Then Rapier, at +4/1d8, wins over any other melee weapon for ya.

And if you're a ranged rogue, Sling wins out over hand crossbow simply by removing opportunity attacks from ever happening to you through Sling Expertise.

Both true, the thief is likely to favor a rapier, though daggers are still pretty tempting with their ability to be thrown and used in the off hand. Likewise for a sniper there are some nice HCB enchantments, if you can get them.

I'd go with whatever weapon mix works for the character theme. None of them are going to be vastly better or worse than the others in most situations.

 

[Fusiox]

I see... thanks for all your help. I appreciate it!

From what people have said:

--Shuriken actually aren't any better than throwing daggers or using a HBC.
--Shuriken are LBs; however, most of the ranged rogue powers that require LBs will also allow the use of a HBC.
--For a melee-oriented Rogue, the shuriken is a bit cheaper (less costly overall, plus you only need to get 1 Expertise feat if you're looking to get an Expertise feat in the first place). As well, the bonus for LB Expertise is a bit more "Rogue-Friendly" (+1/tier extra damage when you have CA and are wielding a LB vs. ignoring cover with a CB), although CB Expertise is really nice for super-snipers, which I'm not quite going for (generous helpings of range attacks, but still mostly melee-oriented as an Artful Dodger is my character's style).

In Rogue powers that require the user to "must be wielding a light blade" but have a melee range, using a shuriken would not bypass the range limit, right? Or would that be an upside to shuriken--using "usually" melee powers as ranged powers due to the shuriken being a LB?

I really appreciate your help, peoples! You told me a lot more than I hoped for!

 

[DracoSuave]

Shuriken are ranged weapons and cannot be used in melee powers. It being a light blade has no bearing on that one way or another.

 

[thalmin]

Shuriken weigh less than dagger or HCB, a big factor for a rogue who might need to watch his encumbrance.