Sighting... let me get this straight

[CCamfield]

The situation is this: the party has stopped along the way in their travels to help an ex-mercenary farmer defend his farm from an impending attack by some hmeerak (a variant of orc which is good at hiding and camouflage).

The hmeerak are attacking in the time just before dawn; the party knew it would be either dusk or pre-dawn, so they're awake and waiting at the windows.

The hmeerak are sneaking up through the fields, which sounds like grasslands: 6d6x20' is the maximum spotting distance.

Let's say I rolled low, a 13, on the dice. That gives 260', but the players won't get a chance to spot the hmeerak until they're at 130'. (Second column, p60)

At that point I have to start getting all the hmeerak and players to start rolling Hide and Spot checks. The hmeerak are either moving 30'/round or 15'/round (depending on one's interpretation of the contradictory rules about movement speed while hiding ). If the players don't spot them at 130', I have to repeat this process in the next round.

This sounds like waaaaay too many die rolls. AEG's Mercenaries suggests having one side (in this case it would be the monsters) take 10, which would make things better, but it's still a series of nothing but die rolls.

 

[jonrog1]

Actually (and I don't have the DMG with me), in the next section there's the explanation that once the "initial contact" Spot is blown, then you progress by half distances. That is, if maximum spot's at 130', then you roll again at 65' (I'd say 60'), then again at 30', at which point you're in melee range, and somebody's spotting somebody, or acting or attacking.

Now, for my quick and dirty suggestion, let the monsters take 10 opn the Hide and Move Silent -- they do this sort of thing all the time. And let the PC's take 10 on their Hide -- they did have time to find a good spot, pull the curtains over, etc, only making them roll if they move from place to place.

That just leaves 3 Spot checks for either side -- and once again, you could let the hmeerak take 10 on those, assuming they're not insanely worried about some schmuck farmer, but I only suggerst that if there's SO many of them that it's a burden. Or use a rule borrowed from SPYCRAFT -- for every Hmeerak, add a +1 or +2 up to a reasonable number to that base 10 or the Spot check of the most observant member of the Hmeerak. THis takes into account the better surveillance results of more men covering more ground (hence, Search parties).

If neither side spots each other, oir they both spot each other, then as soon as somebody acts you go into straight initiative. If somebody spots somebody else, but is undetected, award a surprise round.

All of the above is just my opinion (except for the bit form the DMG), but I've used it and it works smoothly.

 

[Artoomis]

I can't remember for sure if this is in the rules or not, but somewhere it is suggested that you use only one spot check for the whole party. Obviously, this would be at the highest Spot check bonus.

 

[Zad]

Have the orcs take 10 on their hide rolls

Have the party take 10 on their spot check. Use the best spot check in the party.

Work it out from there - no dice involved. I have a character with a high spot and I frequently take 10 just to eliminate the randomness.

 

[Stalker0]

Its actually a bit easier than most people are describing.

If the monsters are hiding, then at 260', the party rolls a spot check.

The DC is 25+ the monster's hide skill mod (in other words, the monsters DO NOT roll hide checks at this point). Pg. 60 of the DMG lists any additional mods you might need to add to the DC. The monster's spot checks are at -2 for hiding. Note: You do not add a penalty for distance to spot checks for these rolls.

If these fail, then at 130', you roll normal spot vs hide checks with all normal penalties.

If those fails, what you do now is up to you. By the book, the monster's would probably get a surprise round if they saw the pcs. You could give player's additional spot checks at lower distances, but that is not covered in the book.

 

[the Jester]

Its actually a bit easier than most people are describing.

If the monsters are hiding, then at 260', the party rolls a spot check.

The DC is 25+ the monster's hide skill mod (in other words, the monsters DO NOT roll hide checks at this point). Pg. 60 of the DMG lists any additional mods you might need to add to the DC. The monster's spot checks are at -2 for hiding. Note: You do not add a penalty for distance to spot checks for these rolls.

If these fail, then at 130', you roll normal spot vs hide checks with all normal penalties.

If those fails, what you do now is up to you. By the book, the monster's would probably get a surprise round if they saw the pcs. You could give player's additional spot checks at lower distances, but that is not covered in the book.

Er... where does all this come from? A spot check suffers a -1 penalty per 10' of difference, so at 260' it should be the monsters' hide check vs. the pcs' spot checks -26... I'm not sure where you got the 25 + hide modifier?

 

[CCamfield]

<snip>
If those fails, what you do now is up to you. By the book, the monster's would probably get a surprise round if they saw the pcs. You could give player's additional spot checks at lower distances, but that is not covered in the book.

Well, it's after that point that I was actually talking about. There's some discussion on p61 about what & how much the aware side can do; going to a surprise round isn't mandatory. (But Jonrog, I didn't see anything saying you continue to do checks at 1/4, 1/8th of the distance, etc)

I was just looking at the Hide section in the skills paragraph and was surprised that it doesn't actually flat out say you have to roll each round - say you were sneaking up on someone in combat.


Jester - if you're confused, I suggest you look at that section of the DMG (p59-60).

 

[jonrog1]

Hmm, I may have committed the ultimate sin -- I may have used a Sage Advice suggestion as rules. You're right, that's not there.

The Base 25+ hide mod, -2 to their spot for hiding IS in there, though. Forgotten about that.

I still think the suggestion's a good one, from Sage, making "sneaking up" not an all-or-nothing affair -- the opponents get easier to spot as they get closer. Three rolls instead of 8 seems a good compromise.

And in combat, you'd roll your Hide when sneaking up on someone when it's opposed by your opponent's chance to Spot you. If you're spotted, you can Bluff to get out of someone's view and Hide, allowing you to try sneaking up on them again.

I'd actually suggest grabbing the skill definitions from the D20Modern SRD. They're better written than the ones in the PH, with explicit rules on when you can take 10 or 20, etc.

 

[CCamfield]

Thanks, maybe I will check out the d20Modern SRD...

Forgive my ignorance... but are the Sage Advice answers collected anywhere? Are those effectively the FAQ?

 

[jonrog1]

yep, those are the FAQ