Sigil in DMG2 - Any thoughts?

[Jack99]

It has a sidebar in the 4e MotP that boils down to 'demons and devils don't like each other, but there's absolutely nothing going on at the moment and the planes-spanning ideological genocide that was a central motivating conflict on the planes - that's all in the past and doesn't impact anything now and we won't devote any further space to it.' I think the phrase appears maybe 8 times in the entire text, including headers and two item names.

When I said "no Blood War", either I should have been more clear in the term, or you're a bit too easily offended. No Blood War isn't the same as "it doesn't exist", just the same as saying "no orcus" during early 2e wasn't the same as saying "orcus no longer exists in the game at all".

The Blood War gets mentioned as an inactive non-issue within the default cosmology.

Actually, the Blood War is mentioned in other places in the various releases, but you are correct that there has been no dedicated articles or even chapters to it, which of course stresses that it's not the most important part of the devil/demon schism.

 

[doctorhook]

...Which of course stresses that it's not the most important part of the devil/demon schism.

I agree. I would say that 4E's Blood War is essentially a unique facet of 4E's overriding planar conflict: Immortals vs Elementals.

Still, just because The Blood War hasn't got much attention in 4E doesn't mean it can't be a major driving force in anyone's home game. As is, the lore of 4E already outlines the context of the Blood War anyway.

Maybe somebody should submit a Dungeon article about the Blood War in 4E, spelling out the specifics.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

I don't like the the "reduction" of the Blood War...because with infinite numbers of demons and devils, you we need SOMETHING to keep them busy or they'd wipe out the normal worlds...think about it...

but what was a worse was the "Faction War", OMG I wish that had NEVER occured and was wiped from 4th ed, so guess I'll need ot wait for 5th ed for 'em to retcon it :/

The factions were fantastic backdrop elements of Planescape, so, wiping most of 'em out effectively was yet another enormous TSR screw up, like screwing up Dark Sun ("ooh, Democracy!", blerg!)
TSR loved changing things cause they could....very, very foolish.

The concept of "Belief owns all" in Planescape was amazing,, so I miss that too.


DMG 2 is extremely good, Sigil is well done, though I wish instead of the mini adventure we had more fluff and monster stats.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I don't like the the "reduction" of the Blood War...because with infinite numbers of demons and devils, you we need SOMETHING to keep them busy or they'd wipe out the normal worlds...think about it...

Heh. Whereas I'm the exact opposite. I wish they'd completely gotten rid of it--it was one of the things I hated most about the cosmology of earlier editions--but I'll settle for them pushing it to the background.

As to why they haven't overrun reality in 4E, keep in mind that

A) They only have limited access to planar magics,

B) Devils aren't necessarily infinite,

C) There are plenty of other forces in the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos for them to contend with, and, most importantly,

D) Demons kill each other as much as, or more than, they do anything else. It's not like the literal embodiments of chaotic evil are likely (or even able) to put aside their differences in the long-term.

 

[doctorhook]

Heh. Whereas I'm the exact opposite. I wish they'd completely gotten rid of it--it was one of the things I hated most about the cosmology of earlier editions--but I'll settle for them pushing it to the background.

Do you mind if I ask why you didn't like the Blood War so much?

As to why they haven't overrun reality in 4E, keep in mind that

...

D) Demons kill each other as much as, or more than, they do anything else. It's not like the literal embodiments of chaotic evil are likely (or even able) to put aside their differences in the long-term.

Personally, I like 4E's place for the Blood War: it's there, but it's more a single battle than the whole war. If you're running a planar campaign, it's easy enough to use it or ignore it completely.

At any rate, you're right about Demons. Devils have a clear goal in invading The Abyss (they want to capture the Shard), but I think Demons are just as likely to try to invade Baator as they are any other place.

 

[Shemeska]

but what was a worse was the "Faction War", OMG I wish that had NEVER occured and was wiped from 4th ed, so guess I'll need ot wait for 5th ed for 'em to retcon it :/

While I'm of the opinion that a lot of the design for 4e's planes was backsliding/destructive change, here I am thinking that going with the post-Faction War timeline for Sigil was one of the very few things that I'm absolutely thrilled that 4e went with. I don't know who in specific was responsible for it, but it pleases me greatly.

As for 5e retconning it, in an ideal fantasy world where I have a hand in whichever company produces 5e, I'd firmly keep (but further develop and expand the consequences of) the Faction War. Very little was actually removed, and the additions more than outweighed any loss IMO, which I don't necessarily see with a lot of the 4e stuff (thus far).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Do you mind if I ask why you didn't like the Blood War so much?

Personally, I like 4E's place for the Blood War: it's there, but it's more a single battle than the whole war. If you're running a planar campaign, it's easy enough to use it or ignore it completely.

At any rate, you're right about Demons. Devils have a clear goal in invading The Abyss (they want to capture the Shard), but I think Demons are just as likely to try to invade Baator as they are any other place.

One should probably come up with a reason for the Demons to invade Hell. Maybe they want it because Asmodeus at least knew how to kill _one_ god. Maybe by enslaving him or getting access to him, they can learn another powerful trick against the gods, bringing them closer to tear down creation.

 

[Herobizkit]

I don't know much about the Plansecape world at large, but the Demon and Devil conflict post-Blood War could be compared to the now infamous Cold War between the Soviets and the USA (among other countries). Both are evil 'superpowers' but neither side can afford to attack the other. Being Lawful Evil, the Devils have resorted to more tactical and political strategies; the Chaotic Demons realize that any full-frontal assault will weaken their forces elsewhere which they cannot afford to do.

At least, that's my take on it.

 

[Inyssius]

At any rate, you're right about Demons. Devils have a clear goal in invading The Abyss (they want to capture the Shard), but I think Demons are just as likely to try to invade Baator as they are any other place.

More likely, if I've got my lore right. The piece of the Shard in the Ruby Rod was theirs once, and it calls to them. If the Abyss has a single mind (which it kind of does, in a nebulous long-scale way), "get it BACK" is the most clearly-defined goal it has beyond "EAT EVERYTHING".

 

[Mouseferatu]

Do you mind if I ask why you didn't like the Blood War so much?

Several things, really.

First, I didn't feel like it had any legitimate cause in earlier editions. The notion that demons and devils would wage multi-planar war due solely to alignment differences never sat right with me; it didn't feel like a legitimate motivation. (Ironically, 4E actually gives a more solid reason for the war, IMO.)

Second, it felt like it was too often used as nothing but an excuse for why the fiends hadn't taken over.

But those are both minor reasons. My major dislikes are:

It came this close to utterly ruining the very fundamental concepts behind the two races of fiends. It made the demons far too much of a coherent, unified faction. The notion of demons cooperating for anything in such vast numbers runs counter to their existence as embodiments of chaotic evil.

Similarly, devils are schemers and corruptors. Having them focus so much attention on other fiends drastically weakened their innate concept as a driving force of evil among mortals.

And then there's the fact that both of the above play into one of my major problems with the Planescape setting as a whole. (Let me be clear: I liked Planescape. I ran campaigns in Planescape. But that doesn't mean there weren't aspects I hated, and this is one.) The entire setting humanized the fiends far too much.

Demons and devils are the embodiments of evil (albeit different kinds of evil from each other). They're not just evil humans with funky skin and powers; they are truly alien entities for whom evil is wrapped up in their very nature.

Planescape turned them into the D&D equivalent of Star Trek aliens, IMO. It made them far too human, made their cultures and their mindsets far too comprehensible. The notion of a demon or a devil sitting down for a drink in a tavern in Sigil (just for example) is absolutely anathema to what these creatures are. The Blood War was just one element of what was, to me, Planescape's mismanaging of the very concept of the fiends.