Silence Spell Saving Throw

[Scion]

phantasmal killer kills through fear, not the same.

the shadow spells draw on shadow to produce semi real effects, not the same.

It is not I who is the one not understanding, it is those who can read the rules that say what things do and then ignore them. Which is unfortuante.

Either the sound is gone (not a glamor) or it is still there and can hurt you (glamor).

 

[Thanee]

Illusion is all about making things seem to be something else, ...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

It is not I who is the one not understanding, it is those who can read the rules that say what things do and then ignore them. Which is unfortuante.

Ok, then show us your wisdom!

Silence
Illusion (Glamer)

Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.

Where does it say, that the sound is not actually changed, but only seems to be changed?

Or here...

Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)

The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

Where's the part, that the target only appears to be invisible, but is not actually invisible?

Bye
Thanee

 

[atom crash]

When characters interact with an invisible object or creature, they do so through other senses, since obviously you can't see something that is invisible. If an invisible creature moves and you happen to spot it, you sense the movement but it remains invisible.

So why can't you interact with a silent creature or object? You can still a character's lips moving, but you can't hear what they are saying because obviously you can't hear a sound that is inaudible.

Invisibility changes the visual quality of something from visible to invisible (which is covered by the definition of what a glamer does). Silence changes the sound quality from audible to inaudible (again, a glamer).

And I read the defense against sonic-based attacks part of silence as a secondary effect, while the primary effect is to stop sound. Incidentally, invisibility provides a defense against gaze attacks if the creature with the gaze attack is invisible.

Edit: It's way too easy to leave an "i" out of "invisibility."

 

[Scion]

Where does it say, that the sound is not actually changed, but only seems to be changed?

Ah, so you are almost there, maybe you will be able to come around eventually to what the magic section has to say. You are so close, just not there yet.

 

[KarinsDad]

::shrugs:: yet again, the text itself says in plain english what is going on and yet you draw a conclusion completely opposite to it.

That is your perogative of course. For myself, I will go with what the rules say as opposed to some other randomness.

Sensory qualities can be fooled, but the truth is still the same. It is only an illusion.

something can appear to be invisible (haha) and yet it is still there. The sound can seem to be inaudible, yet it is still there.

For someone who claims to follow the rules, you sure do ignore them completely a lot. I am suspecting that you are just a stubborn troller who refuses to be a man and admit when he is mistaken.

To prove me wrong, show some RULES that illustrate that when you are invisible, you only "appear to be invisible". In silence, the sound only "seems to be inaudible".

Unless you can do this, the rest of us should ignore you on this topic because you are just arguing nonsense just to argue nonsense.

Admit to being mistaken, or post some rules to prove your point.

 

[Scion]

I have already posted several different places in the raw that support my position. Simply having posted the section about glamors and figments should be sufficient as it completely contradicts what people have said here.

However, until they come up with something actually from the raw then they are simply making up houserules to explain away the error in the ruleset. It happens, people have said the same about other typographical issues or improper useage of terms.

Still, since the raw says that it is wrong then it really shouldnt be an issue, it is very strange that even when presented with the text that is pretty clear on how it is supposed to work and then the other which contradicts this that people are happy with it. To each their own.

So, I am waiting until people have some actual raw to suppor their claims. Other than, 'but it says it is a glamor so it must be correct.'

 

[Thanee]

Since you are too lazy as it seems , here are the quotes you refer to...

Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

A general flavor overview, obviously not complete, otherwise there would be no need to detail it further (and obviously some illusion types do things different, like Shadow or our protagonists, the Glamer).

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can.

So, what is a "real effect" in this context? Is it the change of look or sound?

Obviously not (see below), it means...

They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

No mentioning of defensive qualities or sensory qualities... but those (the latter) will be mentioned below...

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Here we come to the "see below" part...

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

I guess it has been quoted often enough by now...

Glamers change sensory qualities. Very simple rule.

Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

So?

How - except for quoting stuff out of context - does this support your position in any way?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hey, Karin - I wouldn't be so quick to insult other people here, especially when you mention that they have been proven wrong and just won't shut up.

Cleave on an AoO, anyone?

In other words, tone it down before a Mod needs to step in.

 

[Scion]

The text is there plain as day saying exactly the opposite of the conclusion that thanee is drawing from it.

I dont know what else to say on this thread, it is clear that this is not a true glamor because of the rules for glamors. There really isnt 'anything' illusory about this spell.

It provides protection.
It actually nullifies sound in its area of effect.

There is nothing glamor like about the first and the second could be a simple side effect of the first, hence making it an abjuration or a transmutation depending on the flavor text.

This is the last I have to say on this matter for this thread, the raw has been put up and it is remarkably clear compared with other issues and yet it is still not sufficient.

In any event, have fun all, I have stated my case too many times over already in this thread, I think that the text speaks for itself. The amount of abuse is scaling up for no good reason and people are trying to bring their personal feelings into it. Try not to get too worked up people.