Silence Spell Saving Throw

[Scion]

Invisibility also has a real effect in the way you think about it, it changes the way light waves are reflected, so it cannot be an illusion (glamer) spell either then.

If it changed light in any way then the various ways to see through invisibility would not work.

It is an illusion, nothing really changes, only someones perceptions.

If you are hit by a vorpal sword and your head goes flying away it will take a whole lot of, 'nuh uh! I disbelieve!' to come back to life

Similarly, it isnt that people simply perceive there to be no sonic damage, there actually is none.

In essence, there seems to be zero things that are illusory about this spell!

 

[Scion]

Still, the tanglefoot bag itself requires a touch attack and allows a Reflex save to avoid being stuck to the floor (and thus stuck in the area of the Silence), so I'm not sure the tactic is powerful enough to demand intervention.

The reflex save does not help one avoid being silenced, it merely helps not be stuck to the floor. Too bad the silence is currently centered on what is currently entangling the caster. So, he can run around in any direction, but he'll still be silenced.

So, we have something along the following situation: Silenced tanglefoot bag, someone readies to hit the caster with it when he casts, caster casts, touch attack (chances of this hitting tend to be very high), disrupted spell (likely whether it hits or not), entangled caster who cannot cast the vast majority of spells.

Really, I would have no problem with it if it was just something like a 20% miscast chance or something. But, an effective autocounter (when dispel magic counter is a full level higher and has a good chance of not succeeding) along with all of its other uses (which are fun, dont get me wrong) is just a bit much.

 

[taliesin15]

scion writes:
It is an illusion, nothing really changes, only someones perceptions.


not so sure about this, and through reading this entire thread, the deal with Descartes' tree falling in the forest paradox keeps coming up in my mind...

if the Silence spell does not actually silence the words coming from a spellcaster's mouth(its only affecting the perceptions of those who do not make Saving Throws), it doesn't really matter whether s/he can hear himself speak the auditory components as long as they are spoken--the important point (if I understand AD&D magic theory) is that they are spoken in the first place--the Gods or Energies that effect the Magic are the important ones here--save maybe for something like the Sorceror where all the power comes from within

conversely, if Silence does affect actual sound, if someone makes their Saving Throw against Silence, but everywhere else in the area is silenced, what happens exactly? Her/his voice breaks through the area of Silence so everyone can hear it? Perhaps s/he hears it but no one else can? If the latter, then how do The Gods and/or Higher Energies that make Magic work in this fictional milieu hear the verbal components?

 

[Chorn]

It is an illusion, nothing really changes, only someones perceptions.

You're getting dangerously close to claiming that Invisibility is mind affecting here. You're getting the effects of a glamer reversed here. Glamers don't affect the perceptions of those interacting with the target, they change the way the target appears or sounds or whatever sensory alteration is supposed to happen.

Yes it's stepping on the toes of Transmutation, but only in a limited fashion. You can use a glamer to make a sponge feel and look like a rock, but it's still a rock. It's not the only example of overlap in schools. Conjuration and Evocation can both generate damaging energy effects. Shield is an Abjuration, but Mage Armor is a Conjuration spell; plus they both have the [Force] descriptor in common with the Evocation spell Wall of Force.

 

[Scion]

if Silence does affect actual sound, if someone makes their Saving Throw against Silence

Only the target gets a save. If you happen to be in the area you do not get a save. Also, if whoever/whatever the target is makes its save then the spell is negated.

Also, if a caster is deaf and tries to cast a spell with a vocal component it has a 20% of failing.

You're getting dangerously close to claiming that Invisibility is mind affecting here.

Check out the rules for various illusions, they are the ones skirting dangerously close You can go at it from any of the directions that have been said, but they amount to the same thing (well, other than the photons being moved/shifted/whatever, that one doesnt work because of things like see invis).

In addition, I dont really care which of the various other schools that 'could' be used is used, so long as it isnt illusion which makes no sense at all. What is illusory about this spell exactly? The sound is actually negated, not illusion.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The reflex save does not help one avoid being silenced, it merely helps not be stuck to the floor. Too bad the silence is currently centered on what is currently entangling the caster. So, he can run around in any direction, but he'll still be silenced.

I've always interpreted it in such a way that, if the target succeeds on his save, then the majority of the goo missed him, splattering on the floor at his feet. So he can (at half speed) move away from the silenced goo and out of the area of the spell. At half-speed, it'll still likely take him 2 rounds to get out of the spell effect, but he can get out of it.

I imagine that you're envisioning the saving throw allowed by the tanglefoot bag, and what success and failure mean, differently.

 

[Scion]

Going by the descriptive text it seems to me that the target is hit by the glob and the reflex save is to keep said glob from attatching him to the ground, but the glob is still on him.

But, you can use it either way I suppose, it just doesnt make much sense to me to have flying creatures bound to themselves (the glob hit them) vs walking creatures bound to the ground (the glob hit the floor at their feet) without their being some sort of third option With the one I picture it hits the creature either way, but the flying guy might stick to himself and the walking guy might happen to have it dry on his foot and on the ground.

Just a different way of looking at it I suppose, but either way they are moving at half until several rounds later, which means that they must have a good amount stuck to them.

ie. they are entangled so long as that touch attack hit, no matter if the reflex save is made or not, so they must have a good amount of the stuff on them. I would assume pretty much all (they kept it from keeping them to the ground).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

no matter if the reflex save is made or not, so they must have a good amount of the stuff on them. I would assume pretty much all (they kept it from keeping them to the ground).

Fair enough. As I said, I imagine the bulk of the stuff hitting the ground. The reflex save is to jump out of the way so that you're only hit with some splash, and not stuck in the main glob of goo. You fail, you're stuck. You succeed, and you've still been splashed with goo (and thus entangled), but you got yourself out of the way of the main blob, so you can still (albeit slowly) move away.

My way does deviate more from the flavor text than yours. But it also lets me feel comfortable about allowing the spell and the item to remain in the game without changes. Whereas if I ruled it as you do, I'd definitely have to change something, since I agree with you on the overpowering nature of a ranged touch attack that silences a spellcaster with no save.

 

[Thanee]

Tanglefoot Bags are pretty broken, anyways... half speed without a save... just check the "slow is naaasty" thread for what that means...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Chorn]

Check out the rules for various illusions, they are the ones skirting dangerously close

Cite? I don't see anything comes close to making Invisibility=Epic Mass Cloud Mind.

In addition, I dont really care which of the various other schools that 'could' be used is used, so long as it isnt illusion which makes no sense at all. What is illusory about this spell exactly? The sound is actually negated, not illusion.

It's an illusion because that's how glamers work. They're psuedo-Transmutation effects that mess with the sensory properties of the target. Any effects which fit that model are placed in the Glamer subschool of Illusion. It's the sonic equivalent of Invisibility. By your reasoning that spell can be said to negate photons, so it should be Transmutation. We could place it in Transmutation, but with the way the schools are defined it is a better fit for Illusion.