Silent Image of Obscuring Mist

[takasi]

I have an RPGA gnome beguiler. Everyone I play with has a love/hate relationship with one of his favorite spells (obscuring mist).

Can he make a silent image of obscuring mist instead?

Unlike obscuring mist, a silent image can move. It also has a duration of concentration.

A will save is allowed if the image is interacted with. What is considered "interaction"? If an illusionary cloud moves into a room, is it considered interaction if someone simply sees it? Or must they "study" it or touch it? How long does it take them to study it from a distance before a will save is made?

If the gnome tells his party that he's casting silent image to create the illusion of mist (before combat obviously), this is "proof that it isn't real" so the mist would appear to my party members as a translucent outline. They could shoot out of the mist, but opponents that believe in the mist could not target creatures in the mist, correct?

Has anyone done this before? How did it work out?

 

[backbeat]

I believe your party members would get +4 on there save to disbelieve. Maybe more if it's a common tactic.

In the case of a fog cloud I would rule that the save happens as soon as you look at it. I can't see any other time it would happen. It's a super cheap way to get the party a decent miss chance, but only if your baddie has a poor Will save and your character is willing to spend the whole combat concentrating.

 

[takasi]

I believe your party members would get +4 on there save to disbelieve. Maybe more if it's a common tactic.

I have to disagree; I think it's automatic if the illusionist tells you (and you believe the illusionist):

"A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. "

It doesn't say proof beyond the shadow of a doubt, or even multiple forms of proof. As long as there is any proof (which the above should qualify for) then no saving throw is necessary.

In the case of a fog cloud I would rule that the save happens as soon as you look at it. I can't see any other time it would happen.

Would you rule that a save happens as soon as you look at other illusions, like a wall? If not, then why not? What makes the cloud any different?

It's a super cheap way to get the party a decent miss chance, but only if your baddie has a poor Will save and your character is willing to spend the whole combat concentrating.

Not just a miss chance; the opponent would lose LOS altogether.

And with spell focus (illusion), at first level the gnome with 18 int will project images with a DC 17 (4 int + 1 feat + 1 racial +1 spell level), and at 3rd could take greater spell focus (illusion) for a DC 18. Even an opponent with a decent will save at this level will fail more often than not.

Higher level spells are even better; they persist even after concentrating on them. They are also already heighten for you. The beguiler could easily deny opponents their dex modifier by attacking them from within the illusionary mist, increasing the DC on his phantasmal assailants, killers and shadow conjuration/evocation spells without the need to feint.

 

[two]

I believe your party members would get +4 on there save to disbelieve. Maybe more if it's a common tactic.

In the case of a fog cloud I would rule that the save happens as soon as you look at it. I can't see any other time it would happen. It's a super cheap way to get the party a decent miss chance, but only if your baddie has a poor Will save and your character is willing to spend the whole combat concentrating.

If just looking at an illusion qualifies as "interacting" with it... well then, every enemy seeing any type of illusion (allowing a save) would simply always get a save to disbelieve the illusion.

Isn't this a huge nerf to an already underpowered school (illusions)?

In what case would you NOT allow a save vs. an illusion until you interact with it (since interact = see?)?

 

[Mistwell]

In the case of a fog cloud I would rule that the save happens as soon as you look at it. I can't see any other time it would happen. It's a super cheap way to get the party a decent miss chance, but only if your baddie has a poor Will save and your character is willing to spend the whole combat concentrating.

Merely looking at an illusion is definitely not enough to get the will save. "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would receive a saving throw if she stopped and studied the floor or if she probed the floor." I think that's pretty clear that merely looking at it doesn't get you the save.

See the Rules of the Game - All About Illusions article 2 here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a

And article 3 here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a

The second article explains that to count as studying, it is defined as "...taking an action (which DMs can choose to make a move action since this is an extrapolation of the rules and not an actual rule) to observe an illusion effect and note its details." Interacting is defined as "... attack it, touch it, talk to it, poke it with a stick, target it with a spell, or do something else that one might do with a real creature or object."

I think it's pretty darn clear that merely seeing an illusion, without taking an action to study or interact with it, means you don't get a will save.

And that is how the spell SHOULD work in my opinion. If you create a false wall with a silent image, unless the creature that sees it is familiar with the location and knows the wall shouldn't be there, they are not going to spend time taking an action to study or interact with a wall, they are just going to move around it like the do with all other walls. Give a save every time they see it would really reduce the power of all figment spells.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree that looking at the cloud would not grant a save, however, making an attack through it or in it would. In this case, the person is trying hard to see through the cloud so he can target his enemies, which would result in a save.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the gnome tells his party that he's casting silent image to create the illusion of mist (before combat obviously), this is "proof that it isn't real" so the mist would appear to my party members as a translucent outline. They could shoot out of the mist, but opponents that believe in the mist could not target creatures in the mist, correct?

Has anyone done this before? How did it work out?

This has been my most common Silent Image for some years now.

I'm partial to a green and purple mist with twining tendrils, personally

-Hyp.

 

[SadisticFishing]

I agree that looking at the cloud would not grant a save, however, making an attack through it or in it would. In this case, the person is trying hard to see through the cloud so he can target his enemies, which would result in a save.

Why would they be able to see through the mist?

... Why would disbelieving it let you see through it at all in the first place?

 

[Jack Simth]

Why would they be able to see through the mist?

If it was real mist, they wouldn't be able to do so... but unless they simply run, they'll sure try.

... Why would disbelieving it let you see through it at all in the first place?

It's a feature of the Illusion school:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

(Emphasis and emphasis added).

Now, an Illusory Wall has an exception "Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface, though such measures do not cause the illusion to disappear" - but otherwise, Illusion(Figment) spells such as Silent Image drop to basically outlines when the observer makes the will save.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Ah thank you. Ooh that's a really cool idea, which even makes sense from a logic perspective, and not just a rules one.. yay.

Gotta keep that in mind.