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<blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 8498350" data-attributes="member: 6802951">No. Having SB allows you to affect any of those rolls. Therefore we need to compare with subclasses that also has options to affect each of those rolls. I have made no requirement that they have to be able to do it all at once.&nbsp;I don't think I've spotted this. How are they doing it?&nbsp;I really need to check your maths here. If you are rolling a D20 twice, with the same DC, and taking any failed result, the chance of failure is identical. It doesn't matter whether you roll them at the same time, or the second D20 only after you see the result of the first.&nbsp;This is an outright falsehood. The chances of failure are the same. You are rolling a D20 twice at the same DC, and taking any failure as the result. It is also the same chance as if you were to cast the same spell at them on a subsequent round if they make the save the first time.&nbsp;The chance of failure overall is identical.&nbsp;My experience disagrees.Its a good example of a higher level spell with a save that does nothing if the opponent makes it. One of my groups has run into a lot of elementals lately, so it was at the top of my mind. Its a good &quot;remove this opponent from the current fight&quot; spell, and even if it can't permanently get rid of the target, it reduces the current opponents, allowing better focusing by the party and less damage taken. It is actually only generally rarely used against opponents that it can permanently banish I've found. (Current experience notwithstanding ).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cap'n Kobold, post: 8498350, member: 6802951"] No. Having SB allows you to affect any of those rolls. Therefore we need to compare with subclasses that also has options to affect each of those rolls. I have made no requirement that they have to be able to do it all at once. I don't think I've spotted this. How are they doing it? I really need to check your maths here. If you are rolling a D20 twice, with the same DC, and taking any failed result, the chance of failure is identical. It doesn't matter whether you roll them at the same time, or the second D20 only after you see the result of the first. This is an outright falsehood. The chances of failure are the same. You are rolling a D20 twice at the same DC, and taking any failure as the result. It is also the same chance as if you were to cast the same spell at them on a subsequent round if they make the save the first time. The chance of failure overall is identical. My experience disagrees. Its a good example of a higher level spell with a save that does nothing if the opponent makes it. One of my groups has run into a lot of elementals lately, so it was at the top of my mind. Its a good "remove this opponent from the current fight" spell, and even if it can't permanently get rid of the target, it reduces the current opponents, allowing better focusing by the party and less damage taken. It is actually only generally rarely used against opponents that it can permanently banish I've found. (Current experience notwithstanding ). [/QUOTE]

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