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<blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 8499407" data-attributes="member: 6802951">No, I really don't think I do for the purposes of this comparison.Remember that this side discussion is about the versatility of the spell, and that to replicate its capabilities you need very specific subclasses or other character choices.If you want to shift the goal to comparing how many times you can use it compared to how many times you need to use it for various options, feel free to do that with someone else.Indeed. I believe Dasuul has addressed this themselves.You realise that that is like claiming that if you roll disadvantage against DC10 using a red d20 for the base first, and a blue d20 for the disadvantage, applying disadvantage only gives a 50:50 chance if the red dice comes up a success? Don't you?Remember we are comparing against a spell that needs to be cast beforehand in order to inflict disadvantage on the save.Let us assume that our example Bard really needs to stick that Polymorph spell before their target does too much damage to the rest of the party. Their opponent has a decent Wisdom and is proficient in Wisdom saves, so there is a 50:50 chance of them succeeding.Bard A&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Strategy:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Disadvantage spellFirst roll&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Disadvantage Roll&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ResultSuccess&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success + Resource spentSuccess&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Failure&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Failure&nbsp;&nbsp; + Resource spentFailure&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Failure&nbsp;&nbsp; + Resource spentFailure&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Failure&nbsp;&nbsp; + Resource spentOverall chance of success: 1 in 4 (25%) + 100% chance of spending resource.Bard B &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Strategy:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Silvery Barbs&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; First roll&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Silvery Barbs reroll&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ResultSuccess&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success + Resource spentSuccess&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Failure&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Failure&nbsp;&nbsp; + Resource spentFailure&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; FailureFailure&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Success&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; FailureOverall chance of success: 1 in 4 (25%) + 50% chance of spending resource.Remember: one of the strengths of Silvery Barbs is that you don't have to use it if you don't need to. Memorising SB rather than the disadvantage spell to help get through saves means that you have exactly the same chance of landing the spell overall. You just might not need to actually cast Silvery Barbs.I know, and it was that statement that I was taking issue with. In my experience it is quite rare to see a spell being cast if the opponent has better than 50:50 odds of succeeding on the save. Mistakes happen but generally spellcasters don't rely on a single save for their spells after low levels, and if they don't think it will be effective, they do something else.IME usually, if a creature makes a save against a spell, it is because it got lucky and rolled high. Not because it rolled low but had a massive save bonus.Two different parties currently have it available in games I run/am in.Amusingly I have only seen it used to get a spell past saves a few times: a couple on Suggestion and once on Banishment IIRC. Not seen it negate any crits yet. Mostly I've seen it used with Skill/ability checks.The most spectacular usage that it has been put to so far was in a major &quot;rocket tag&quot; fight against several spellcasters, when it was used in conjunction with Counterspell repeatedly, and to good effect.Most of those things are rather common. They aren't &quot;stars align&quot; rare. They're &quot;Its Tuesday&quot; rare.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cap'n Kobold, post: 8499407, member: 6802951"] No, I really don't think I do for the purposes of this comparison. Remember that this side discussion is about the versatility of the spell, and that to replicate its capabilities you need very specific subclasses or other character choices. If you want to shift the goal to comparing how many times you can use it compared to how many times you need to use it for various options, feel free to do that with someone else. Indeed. I believe Dasuul has addressed this themselves. You realise that that is like claiming that if you roll disadvantage against DC10 using a red d20 for the base first, and a blue d20 for the disadvantage, applying disadvantage only gives a 50:50 chance if the red dice comes up a success? Don't you? Remember we are comparing against a spell that needs to be cast beforehand in order to inflict disadvantage on the save. Let us assume that our example Bard [I]really [/I]needs to stick that Polymorph spell before their target does too much damage to the rest of the party. Their opponent has a decent Wisdom [I]and [/I]is proficient in Wisdom saves, so there is a 50:50 chance of them succeeding. [B]Bard A[/B] [U]Strategy:[/U] Disadvantage spell [B]First roll Disadvantage Roll Result[/B] Success Success Success + Resource spent Success Failure Failure + Resource spent Failure Success Failure + Resource spent Failure Success Failure + Resource spent Overall chance of success: 1 in 4 (25%) + 100% chance of spending resource. [B]Bard B [/B] [U]Strategy[/U]: Silvery Barbs [B]First roll Silvery Barbs reroll Result[/B] Success Success Success + Resource spent Success Failure Failure + Resource spent Failure Success Failure Failure Success Failure Overall chance of success: 1 in 4 (25%) + 50% chance of spending resource. Remember: one of the strengths of Silvery Barbs is that you don't have to use it if you don't need to. Memorising SB rather than the disadvantage spell to help get through saves means that you have exactly the same chance of landing the spell overall. You just might not need to actually cast Silvery Barbs. I know, and it was that statement that I was taking issue with. In my experience it is quite rare to see a spell being cast if the opponent has better than 50:50 odds of succeeding on the save. Mistakes happen but generally spellcasters don't rely on a single save for their spells after low levels, and if they don't think it will be effective, they do something else. IME usually, if a creature makes a save against a spell, it is because it got lucky and rolled high. Not because it rolled low but had a massive save bonus. Two different parties currently have it available in games I run/am in. Amusingly I have only seen it used to get a spell past saves a few times: a couple on Suggestion and once on Banishment IIRC. Not seen it negate any crits yet. Mostly I've seen it used with Skill/ability checks. The most spectacular usage that it has been put to so far was in a major "rocket tag" fight against several spellcasters, when it was used in conjunction with Counterspell repeatedly, and to good effect. Most of those things are rather common. They aren't "stars align" rare. They're "Its Tuesday" rare. [/QUOTE]

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