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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8499437" data-attributes="member: 7030563">If the DC is 10, the chance of succeeding is 55%, not 50%.  It is like saying the blue dice has a 55% chance of suceeding regardless of the first.If I roll a red and a blue dice with disadvantage and the red dice comes up as a success the enemy has a 55% chance of succeeding on the save with the (unkown) blue dice.  But with disadvantage the red dice is not rolled yet when the condition is applied.Yes before either of the dice is known and when either unknown dice could potentially be a failure.With SB only the blue dice can cause a failure.  With disadvantage either dice can cause a failure.Let's for the sake of arguement say you know the enemy needs a 8 to save, because I think this can illustrate my point better -  You won't cast a spell if you know the enemy has a better than 50% chance of saving.  However, if you can apply disadvantage in some fashion (say HS or mind sliver or bane) you can make it so he has a greater chance of failure than success and you know this when you use that resource.  That resource when it is spent (SPs, cantrip, spell slot) will cause the enemy (or enemies) to have greater than a 50% chance of failure on his DC 8 save (assuming it lands).Against the same opponent, you can't do that with Silvery Barbs.  You can get into position and get ready and tell yourself he needs to pass two saves in a row, but once he passes the first you are left with a decision - do I use a slot on something he will probably pass or do I let it go.  You say later on you don't cast spells that enemies have better than a 50:50 chance of saving against .... then you don't cast SB in this case right?The last two cases (noted in red) have nothing to do with sivery barbs.  You did not use the spell.  You do not even need it prepared and outcome would be the same.The first two cases in Bard B are the only thing that is possible to do with SB.  If the DC is high it is not likely that either of these cases will occur and you will not have an opportunity to use the slot.  It will be usually a waste to prepare and save a slot for that encounter.  If the DC is low the first case (success-success) will be the most common outcome.  You will usually get to use it but it will not usually work.This is mathematically true because of the relationship between the DC for the first save that triggers the spell and the second save that you roll.The only time SB actually helps you is the second case (success-failure) and that will always be less than 25% of the time you are prepared to use it for such.  ALWAYS!In the example noted, if the DC is 10 and everything else is in place - the chance this will happen (success-failure) is 24.75%  the other 75.25% of the time having SB will be completely irrelevant (case 3/4) or worse cost a 1st level slot and not change anything (case 1).  Changing the DC below 10 or above 12 will make the chance it is useful even lower.If you don't use it then it does nothing.  Every time I prepare to use silvery barbs but don't use it, is a time that I am doing a bunch of needless and often counterproductive things, including preparing the spell and saving the slot.Now the spell is very versitile and it is powerful,  but if we are talking about reversing a save explicitly, it is not powerful at this becuase it is going to be very uncommon.  If you prepare it and set up and wait to use it for this reason alone it will be rare that it will be helpful.  You simply do not have enough higher level spell slots to get a positive outcome with this use often.Then unless the sample of your experience is statistically biased - it is necessarily uncommon for creatures to make saves and therefore your chances the opportunity to use SB for this will be uncommon and the chance to actually change the save are going to be even less.If this is what you intend to use it for, and these are the only creatures you are casting spells against it will be a spell that is prepared but not often used.  In this respect it will be like feather fall.  Very poweful and perhaps game changing when you get to use it, but you won't get to use it often.FWIW in games I play there are all kinds of extremes in terms of saves.  As I mentioned above, I  tried to banish the Pit Fiend Bel and I think he needed a 7 to save.Yeah this is a much wider use of the spell, which is what I would expect.  The spell is very versatile, but it is not OP.Your first point - that you have only seen it used to get past saves a few times, illustrates my entire point.The last two conditions alone will never have more than 25% chance of happening.  If every single time you cast a spell you have a 1st level slot and have SB prepared and are within 60 feet and have a reaction and can see the enemy ..... If these things are always 100% the case (and they are not).  The chance SB will flip the saving throw is still 25% OR less.</blockquote>

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