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Message: <blockquote data-quote="p_johnston" data-source="post: 8500131" data-attributes="member: 7016849">So this seems to be the crux of the argument. Me (and most of the other people who are arguing about this) are saying that the only valid way to compare a reroll vs Disadvantage is to include the results where you do not actually cast the spell. The only valid comparison of a reroll vs disadvantage is if you take into account all possibilities from the earliest point that either can be applied until the effect is resolved. If you only take into account possibilities that occur after you use SB and then compare it to applying disadvantage before any rolling takes place your comparing apples and oranges.Your main point seems to be that the majority of time SB will not see use because if they are likely to fail the save they probably failed it on the first roll which means that SB will not get used and if they are likely to pass the save then they are likely to pass it again on any reroll. Hence SB is wasted learned/prepared spell in that regard because it is unlikely to come up. (Please correct me on this if I'm wrong)As a counterpoint I would say that having SB as a prepared/learned spell is a very minor cost (especially at later levels) especially with the variety of other uses that are available for it. In addition the times that it does come up with a reroll having a dramatic effect on the game are likely to be times that have an outsized effect. The times where it will likely come into play are going to be boss battles where it makes it more likely that instead of an epic confrontation with a villain the party ends up with 2 rounds of beating the pinata because the wizard paralyzed/hypnotized/banished the big bad.As a comparison look at counterspell. On average you are not going to use counterspell that often. In fact you are likely only going to use it during boss fights because those are the enemies that tend to have spells worth countering. But even if you only are going to use it 1 in 15 battles it is still a really good spell to have because the times it's good it will be really good. SB is in pretty much the same boat in regards to rerolling the saves except unlike counterspell you can use it to negate crits, stop hits, and grant advantage.P.S. In regards to my math on SB with dis/advantage the way I read the spell if the target is initially rolling with advantage and you use SB they must take whatever number is rerolled on the dice if it's lower. For example if they initially roll 20 and 18 and you force them to reroll the 20 and they get a 4 they have to take the 4 not the 18. Mostly because the spell specifically states "it rerolls the d20 and must use the lower roll" which as a specific rule for a spell overrides the general rule for advantage.P.P.S I severely dislike how rerolling works with dis/advantage not just for SB but in general. It's unintuitive and most effects that have it are poorly written for a system where rolling multiple d20's are common.P.P.P.S HAPPY NEW YEARS.</blockquote>

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