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Simple House Rule for Ritual Casting - thoughts?

Infiniti2000

First Post
Plus the component cost is still there as well to act as an abuse deterrent.
The OP recommendation is to also remove the component cost.

I have no idea why since I thought this whole concept was to allow ritual casting in combat (i.e. reduce the time).

By removing said cost, you'll find no one ever using rituals outside their prescribed slots.
 

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Infiniti2000

First Post
Like I said, I really like the idea/feel of this - so do two of my players I have shown it to. But I want to see what others think.
As I said above, I don't like the removal of the component cost. That should be taken out.

Secondly, I don't really like having Vancian slots. If you put the cost back in you'll probably not need this inexplicable and PITA restriction.
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
Skill check – Make a Moderate difficulty skill check using the key skill specified in the ritual description. If you succeed, the Standard action you spent casting the ritual counts toward the time required to perform the ritual as if you had spent 1 minute performing the ritual. Every 5 points by which you exceed the DC counts as another minute. Once you begin performing a ritual you must continue to use the Ritual Casting action every round until you fulfill the time requirement, at which time the ritual takes effect. Otherwise, the rules for interrupting a ritual apply normally.
I guess I'd have to see a table of casting times, but doesn't this essentially make casting in combat not possible? With a casting time equal to or greater than the average combat length, no one will use this in combat. As I understand it, that's the whole point of the houserule, isn't it?

Additionally, do attribute moderate difficulty to the level of the ritual or the level of the caster? You don't say, so I think falling back on RAW it'd be the level of the caster, which I think is wrong in this context.
 

weem

First Post
The OP recommendation is to also remove the component cost.

I have no idea why since I thought this whole concept was to allow ritual casting in combat (i.e. reduce the time).

By removing said cost, you'll find no one ever using rituals outside their prescribed slots.

Yea, the one I posted (from eepop over at RPGnet) did indeed cut out component costs - the lack of costs was not the primary thing I was focusing on, but I can see the problem and agree.

As I said above, I don't like the removal of the component cost. That should be taken out.

/nod

Secondly, I don't really like having Vancian slots. If you put the cost back in you'll probably not need this inexplicable and PITA restriction.

Interesting. If I am understanding this correctly, you are saying add back in component cost, toss the slot restrictions - that right?

I guess I'd have to see a table of casting times, but doesn't this essentially make casting in combat not possible? With a casting time equal to or greater than the average combat length, no one will use this in combat. As I understand it, that's the whole point of the houserule, isn't it?

Well, for some of the longer ones yea. If they have a 1 hour cast time it could take a long time (too long in many cases to even complete before the end of the encounter). With the numbers I played with (from characters of my own - none of which is in front of me now) I figured that with the aid of 2-3 others (in a group of 5) assuming successful aid most of the time, a 10 minute ritual would take 2-3 rounds.

But if you wanted to, for example, build in a ritual to an encounter, you could give a bonus of some kind... maybe the ritual was started by someone else prior to the encounter... now the party must finish it! etc. (for those 1 hour rituals etc)

Additionally, do attribute moderate difficulty to the level of the ritual or the level of the caster? You don't say, so I think falling back on RAW it'd be the level of the caster, which I think is wrong in this context.

At first, I would imagine it would be based on the level of the Ritual as, yes, it wouldn't make sense for it to adjust to the level of the caster... but I think I see where you are going... all of a sudden a one hour ritual of level 2, becomes very easy for a level 25 to roll more than 10 for... a one hour ritual now becomes much faster.

Because of this, the 'moderate' difficulty matching the caster level would work better mechanically... if not thematically (unless I am missing something, which would not be the first time).

---

I really like Dragonblade's houserule, so for now, I am no longer considering the one I brought over in the OP as far as discussions here go.
 
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Dragonblade

Adventurer
Good discussion!

Under the rule I proposed later, component costs are still in. My rules are completely separate from the RPG.net rules proposed in the original post.

Also if a ritual includes time needed to do something extra such as inscribe the circle in Magic Circle, that time is not included. My rule only allows a reduction in the casting time.

Essentially rituals that require over 10 minutes to cast or set up aren't likely to see much use in my system because they would still take too long to cast in combat. Conveniently, that also acts as a nice balancing mechanism because the most powerful rituals like Raise Dead and Magic Circle tend to have casting times of well over 10 minutes. 1 hour or more in many cases.

As a general rule of thumb, rituals with a 10 minute casting time or less are the ones you are likely to see used in combat.

A 10 minute ritual would take about 3 to 4 rounds to pull off if you roll well, perhaps even two rounds if someone is aiding and the caster has his skill bonus optimized. A 1 to 5 minute ritual could conceivably be cast in one round, but thats ok. Again the component cost is still there and I haven't seen any broken rituals with those casting times (with two possible exceptions below). Now some DMs might consider casting something like Water Walking, or Shadow Bridge in combat broken, but I don't, not considering one of your casters is likely trading off several rounds of damage dealing while they use the Ritual Casting action to get it off. Thats the sort of thing I want the party to be able to do in combat and thats why I came up with the rules I did.

The two rituals I have seen that a DM might want to keep an eye on is Rope Trick and Solace Bole, since both have 10 minute casting times. Solace Bole in particular could be broken since it essentially allows the whole party to teleport somewhere else to take an extended rest and then teleport back.
 

Dragonblade

Adventurer
At first, I would imagine it would be based on the level of the Ritual as, yes, it wouldn't make sense for it to adjust to the level of the caster... but I think I see where you are going... all of a sudden a one hour ritual of level 2, becomes very easy for a level 25 to roll more than 10 for... a one hour ritual now becomes much faster.

Because of this, the 'moderate' difficulty matching the caster level would work better mechanically... if not thematically (unless I am missing something, which would not be the first time).

The Moderate difficulty of the skill check is based on the caster level, not the level of the ritual. Otherwise, high level casters would be too powerful because low level rituals would be very easy to cast in one round.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Ugh, PC-based DCs are a pet peeve of mine.

Have you thought about setting a fixed DC and picking a few (stable) modifiers that add to the d20 roll (Trained and the Key Stat, perhaps)?
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
The PC-based DC in this case is particularly unsettling because it doesn't make sense that a caster won't get any better at it as time progresses.

That would be explainable, however, if you take the view that you're simply speeding up the ritual. Since by RAW all casters of any level take the same amount of time, then it makes sense that way. Unfortunately, that view breaks down in the proposed houserules by Dragonblade with the variable casting time. i.e. How do you decrease the time? By rolling well relatively speaking.

I'm curious how a random casting time plays out, too. Generally, randomness is bad for PCs, so is there an alternate method that can eliminate the level-based DC and the randomness? Can a PC stop a ritual if he rolls badly and then try again? For example, I imagine rolling badly and, say, getting 5 rounds. Oops, that's not going work, so stop the ritual and try again. Even if that wastes the first round action, you still might roll less than 4 (even a 4 makes you even so nothing lost). Does the component cost occur even if you spend 1/5 rounds? Does it occur if you're interrupted?
 

Dragonblade

Adventurer
The PC-based DC in this case is particularly unsettling because it doesn't make sense that a caster won't get any better at it as time progresses.

That would be explainable, however, if you take the view that you're simply speeding up the ritual. Since by RAW all casters of any level take the same amount of time, then it makes sense that way. Unfortunately, that view breaks down in the proposed houserules by Dragonblade with the variable casting time. i.e. How do you decrease the time? By rolling well relatively speaking.

I will agree with you on awkwardness of the PC based DCs. Its purely a balance construct.

However, to make it a little more palatable, you can explain it as the caster having to gather external magic and focus it to cast a ritual. Because the ebb and flow of magic around them is not something a PC can control, the difficulty to gather the magic needed to cast the ritual will always have relatively the same difficulty regardless of the level of the PC. The roll the PC makes represents a combination of how much ambient magic happens to flow around them round by round (the Moderate DC) and their skill in gathering that energy (their skill bonus). Thus having the relevant skill trained as opposed to untrained, or having a high relevant ability score can help you roll better.

Can a PC stop a ritual if he rolls badly and then try again? For example, I imagine rolling badly and, say, getting 5 rounds. Oops, that's not going work, so stop the ritual and try again. Even if that wastes the first round action, you still might roll less than 4 (even a 4 makes you even so nothing lost). Does the component cost occur even if you spend 1/5 rounds? Does it occur if you're interrupted?

As stated in my rules, if a PC stops a ritual they already started casting, then the rules for interrupting a ritual apply normally per the PHB. In other words you don't expend any components or pay any costs unless the ritual succeeds.

Also, I think you might have misunderstood how the actual rolling to reduce time works. You don't roll once up front to determine how long the ritual will take in advance. You roll every round you are casting the ritual.

If you fail to beat the DC, that round you spent casting does not help you. The next round you beat the DC, so that counts as 1 minute off. The next round you beat the DC by 10 with a nice roll. Thats 3 minutes off. You are now on round 3. You have now effectively contributed 4 minutes to the casting time of the ritual. You can stop casting the ritual and lose nothing but the time already invested in it. But there is no way to determine how much longer its going to take to cast it and there is no advantage in starting over since you would lose the 4 minutes you have already accumulated towards completing the ritual. You just have to keep spending standard actions casting until you have effectively accumulated 10 minutes (assuming a 10 minute ritual) at which point the ritual takes effect.

Its a tradeoff decision the party has to make. Is having the ritual casting PC spend standard actions to continue to cast the ritual more important than using that standard action to use a power or to do something else?

If you think my rules are too generous than bump the DC to make it Hard. If you prefer PCs to have an easier time casting rituals in combat, then make the difficulty Easy. The DM could even change the difficulty depending on where the PCs are and what ritual they are casting to reflect high or low magic areas. If the PCs are casting Shadow Bridge in the Shadowfell, then the DC might be Easy. Casting it in the Feywild and the difficulty might be Hard.

I hope that addresses some of your concerns. :)
 
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Infiniti2000

First Post
Yes, it does. Thanks for the reply. I did in fact misunderstand. I like your explanation a lot better. :)

I still don't like a whole lot of uses of PC-level-based DCs--I'm with LostSoul on this one--but I do understand the balance construct.
 

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