Simple Monster Templates (idea)

[Stormonu]

Just some really simple (untested) ideas for some monster templates to add some variety to the power of existing monsters. They are certainly inspired by the 4E rules, but I think they still fit the Pathfinder/3.5E flavor exceptionally well.

Minion: Creature has minimum hit points. On a hit with an attack, creature causes minimum damage (even on a critical). CR -1. Useful for putting many creatures on the board at once for PCs to slaughter.

Lackey: Creature has 1/4 normal hit points. On a hit with an attack, creature cannot deal more than average damage (even on a critical). Useful for slowing PCs towards reaching a combat goal.

Elite: Creature has 3/4 normal hit points. Primary ability score gains a +4 bonus (simple: +2 bonus to hit/spell DC's and damage) and a +2 dodge bonus to AC. CR +1. Useful for "leader" or named monsters that pose a significant threat to the PC's aims.

Champion: Creature has maximum normal hit points. Primary ability score gains a +4 sacred/profane bonus, all rolls gain a +2 luck bonus (simple: +2 bonus to all rolls and an additional +2 bonus to hit/spell DC's and damage) and creature gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC. Once during the encounter, the creature can take an extra Standard Action. CR +2. Useful for "boss" monsters or significant threats to the PC's goals.

 

[Tovec]

Sounds like something that can help spice up a game, especially in boss or miniboss battles.

I have a quick question, assuming I'm reading this right.. Elite and Champion both give the same bonuses to the same traits (AC/ability score) but are listed as different types (sacred/profane) is that right? Difference of course being giving the Champion an extra standard during the fight, which I LOVE (*here's a cookie*) by the way.

 

[ruemere]

(the post monster ate previous version of this post. I cannot salvage it so I need to write it all over again and so there may be some mistakes)


My bias is that 4E ultimately reduces importance of a creature to hitpoints. Meaning, I do not like it and I do not think straight transplantation of such idea into 3.x is going to work.
Still, being able to multiply creatures to flood the stage with extras is convenient and here is my take on this.


Design note: inflating hitpoints does not result in appropriate scaling of Challenge Ratings. Additionally, to speed up math, adjustments of CR-1 / CR+1 are not as easy to handle in play as those which assume even numbers (i.e. CR-2 / CR+2), as these directly translate into doubling/halving numbers of creatures.
Therefore Minions should be CR-2 (or CR-4) while Elites should be CR+2 (CR+4 being reserved for single BBEG battles).


Design note #2 or how to quickly weaken creature: party-appropriate CR rating creature is supposed to last between two to four rounds of combat. Therefore a minion should last only a single round. Hitpoints do not allow to put a good estimate of creature survivability, as the ranged attackers and casters are likely to also use their abilities to nullify damage until the PCs somehow overcome distance or arcane defenses.
So, let's make it simple and make the minions become a non-threat after first significant action.

MINION (CR-2)
Minion creature ceases to be a threat after first successful (and significant) action against characters. By applying the template to base creature, you can double the number of base creatures in encounter.
Quick Rules: The creature acts as normal until it inflicts damage upon an opponent, applies negative effect to an opponent or applies positive effects to its peers. Immediately afterwards it begins to suffer -6 penalty to all rolls and loses ability to use any special attacks. If damaged, it will attempt to withdraw from combat or surrender.


Design note #3 or how improve CR of a creature by 2: this is trickier as it is very easy to go overboard. Spellcasters, buffers, archers and brutes work differently and it is harder to make them twice as effective in the same way. Additionally, artificial inflation of hitpoints goes against system... however, the key here is: doubling. In other words, if you can make the creature be twice as effective by doubling its actions, you may be close.
You just need to avoid doubling effectiveness of the primary attack mode as it would make fight too tricky to adjudicate.

ELITE (CR+2)
Elite creatures are harder to kill in more ways than one. By applying this template to base creature, you halve the number of base creatures in the encounter.
Quick Rules: The creature gains Simple Advanced template twice (+4 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +8 to AC and CMD; +4 hp/HD), and additionally (pick one, the creature must still meet level dependent requirements):
- spellcaster - bonus Quicken Spell feat
- spellcaster - free active Contingency
- buffer - ability to inspire peers as per Bard's Inspire Courage
- buffer - ability to Channel Energy as a cleric of its level
- archer - gain Evasion and improve speed by 10 feet
- brute - gain bonus feats: Improved Iron Will (reroll Will save) and Toughness (+3 hitpoints, +(level-3) hitpoints)


Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Stormonu]

Sounds like something that can help spice up a game, especially in boss or miniboss battles.

I have a quick question, assuming I'm reading this right.. Elite and Champion both give the same bonuses to the same traits (AC/ability score) but are listed as different types (sacred/profane) is that right? Difference of course being giving the Champion an extra standard during the fight, which I LOVE (*here's a cookie*) by the way.

A champion will have +4 with its primary form of attack, and a +2 with all other actions. An elite will have just a +2 bonus to its primary attack (no bonus to other actions). Making the champion's bonus sacred/profane just felt like it fit with the "theme" of being a champion (basically flavor).

Giving the extra action was a must - as Ruemere pointed out, CR+2 is basically putting two copies of a creature out on the board, so it needs a way to do double the normal number of actions (at least one, probably all the way through the combat in some way).

While ruemere certainly has a better grasp on the mechanics, I don't like the proposal for minions; how do you explain the sudden -6 after it succeds on an action as anything other than a gamist mechanic? I'd certainly prefer a constant effect instead that would impart a similar effect over time.

 

[Tovec]

Thanks for the reply Stormonu, and for the clarification of what you were saying.
Ultimately I think ruemere was just trying to clean up the rules. Trying to make it a little more balanced.

Personally I don't know if I'll remember to put either of these changes into battle when I have to come up with a larger skirmish. It's not that they aren't good, it's just a fair bit to remember. I certainly will remember to give the grunts only 1 hit a round, giving the boss more HP and a second standard action once (maybe twice) in a battle. They're great tips, thanks a lot and keep up the good work.

 

[ruemere]

[...]

While ruemere certainly has a better grasp on the mechanics, I don't like the proposal for minions; how do you explain the sudden -6 after it succeds on an action as anything other than a gamist mechanic? I'd certainly prefer a constant effect instead that would impart a similar effect over time.

That's because 4E operates on different principles. 3.x (including PFRPG) strive to model reality while 4E tries to smooth the narrative part at the expense of needing to explain its abstractions later.

The minion penalties (just like out-of-the-system bonuses for elites) need specific in-game rationale to make them believable, but it can be done. For example: minions are easily demoralized rookies (tremendous shock of being first time in combat), weakened elders with a strength only for a single shot, drug users riding wave of intoxication or something else.

Myself, I usually do not need to resort to such means, I prefer to use different creature altogether or add convenient PC class (two or three levels).

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Aus_Snow]

Huh. They look startlingly similar (in some ways) to the templates I came up with, pre-4e, for 3e. But then, I've never posted them, only mentioned a couple of details here and there (e.g., minions have minimum HP, and elite has maximum - though in your case, that's the Champion instead...)

Even so, they're not exactly revolutionary ideas, I suppose. And there's always a good chance of concurrent development, or whatever.

Anyway, I went for a simpler approach (in a way), suffice it to say. But your own looks fine as well, IMO.

I think you'll find the options rather useful, whatever forms they take. I know I have.

Also, at least in my case, they are absolutely nothing remotely close to 4e's design. It would have been an interesting coincidence, had they been, seeing they were created prior to even hearing about that game. And besides, that perspective, or set of priorities, is far removed from mine. It is entirely possible to have "minions", "elites" (the latter are even found in the MM, frescrissakes), etc., in line with 3e's design. Completely.

 

[Scott DeWar]

In my humble opinion:

i like the concept. The lesser 'minions' and then the 'better then average' is a rather good idea.

Fot the Pathfinder RPG, however i wish to note that there is and Advanced template that is quite useful.

from the PFRPGSR PDF page 289:
[sblock=PFRPG advanced template]
Advanced Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more
powerful than their ordinary cousins.

Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and
special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.

Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability
Scores +4 to all ability scores.[/sblock]

I like the two lessor creature templates a lot, as well as the 'reason' for existance. Perhaps max hp and such can be champion and the advanced template could be elite?