Simpler Treasure System with (mostly) Random Loot

I am hardly using the treasure system at all with my new group, instead doing the "treasure that makes sense in the situation" system.

I would like a good random magic item generator, though... ;)
 

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I was really hoping this thread would be about a random treasure generator. I appreciate the economics math and work you put in, but it still means I'm skimming over lists of items.

I'd like a table I can roll from that has art items, coinage, jewelry, gems, and other loot that fills out the gp value of each treasure packet. And a random generation of items of appropriate level that my players can have.


As a DM and a player, I like the idea of random loot that I can trade for magic items. If my fighter finds weird platemail of, like, ocean diving, it's something I might not have gone for myself (I like teleports, etc.). That said, it opens up the adventure potential for the group with a level of novelty we might not get with wish lists. Novelty means on-the-go strategy and quick thinking. That can be fun.

Arenas are different, however, as I'd prefer to munch out my characters that way.

Is there a treasure-packet generator the way there are random name generators?
 

Here is a good one:

Quartermaster - Asmor.com

I wish it had the AV2 Items added... oh well.

@Eamon: I like your system. I tried using random treasure before, this will remove the balancing headaches :) Thanks a lot, you just removed the least fun of being DM for me
 

Thanks for all the replies!

- The Jester and fireinthedust were looking for a random loot generator; Obergnom pointed them at the (excellent!) Quartermaster - Asmor.com tool. I'll edit my first post to include that handy link.

@aco175: I think it's often worth rerolling until you get something at least vaguely flavorful. A random generator can save you thinking, but sometimes you still want a certain direction or flavor to an item.
 

I guess that's why I'm interested to see what players would think. One way is fitting the scenario around what the players want (wishlists), and the other is to fit the items around what scenario the DM wants(flavorful to the scenario and storyline that they made up.) Myself, I would find it harder to make up scenarios and items that only I want to see, and even if I did, I don't see how that would be more rewarding to the players.
The players can still buy and sell items, so the in-game effect of a wishlist is still somewhat there. Of course, it's attractive to avoid to much buying and selling as that's a loss-making proposition (and as that may cost in-game time).

That's why I think the randomized system works so well: you can have flavor where you want it, but if you just don't care (often enough it doesn't matter) you can pick randomly and retain balance.

It's also my experience that less die-hard players don't work well with wishlists. They don't know what they want several levels in advance, and don't know what's feasible. A wishlist is too open ended; a fixed budget handily restrains them so they only need to look for what's immediately affordable and useful.

That said, I definitely think as long as this system ends up at the same place, with the players selling the random crap given to them and picking out what they want anyway, I don't see a problem in general, since the players end up with what they really wanted. Of course, the whole magic shop/department store was never immersive in my mind.
You can avoid some immersion issues by presentation; let them commission an item from a forging expert (costs time) or have it teleported in (interplanar trade, even - and 50% loss in selling would then be nicely explained away as to cover the costs of all this magic), let them find the right enchantment, but still need to increase the bonus by further enchantment. Maybe a travelling genie pops (as in NWN, I believe?) up that makes it his business to cater to high-level adventurers (would be a lucrative market, after all) In any case, I find wishlists even worse for immersion than magic shops - shops are just part of the economy, after all - the only weird thing is how well stocked they might be, and that you can tell a story around.

To be honest here, this is basically quite similar to the 3e treasure economy, which worked just fine. It's just much simpler to do in 4e since item prices scale much more simply so you don't need to do much in terms of accounting, and it's much more balanced since item balance is much better across the board.

But the basic concept that items aren't tailored to the PCs and that the gap between PC's wishes and what they find must be bridged by shopping, crafting and some PC adaptation is just the same as in 3e. I do find it somewhat amusing that it's actually easier to implement in 4e, though, even though it wasn't designed for it :-D.
 

Let me start by saying I really agree with your goals! :)

I really think the presentation would improve by giving an example thou'.

Especially the "ei" bits come across as heavily theoretical. A picture tells more than a thousand words!

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That said, I'm not convinced the 20% sales rate is at fault here. What are you supposed to do with the extra money?

You say yourself the extra gold is all but irrelevant when it comes to buying useful stuff. (Even if you got 100% when selling stuff, as per your example).

Theoretically, nothing you can buy will compare to the things that "drop". Not as long as you don't change the curve, that is how every five levels also fivefold the price.

Sure, in practice, there are quite a few items of your level or lower that are desirable. But they are almost all mistakes, pure and simple. Anytime your epic character picks up a bunch of heroic stuff because it is useful, a mistake has (almost by definition) occurred.

So why change the 20% sales percentage? Why not change the exponential price hike? (If your goal is to allow players to use money to custom-buy what they don't get through drops).

In fact, why not keep the system as-is and simply fivefold the amount of random loot in the game?
Edit: I meant "why not increase the amount of loot fivefold when you make it random?"

Your math should quickly tell you that this will amount to a very small increase in player power, because 1) the junk loot remains worthless and 5xworthless=worthless, 2) there's a limited number of slots anyway, very soon any increase will be incremental at best.

And of course 3) by increasing the rate of loot by five, the importance of getting something useful just dropped by 4/5 - essentially you get five tickets to the lottery each level instead of just one*

*) one magic item for each PC except one, who gets gold instead. Except in all those groups where gold is always split equally.

I guess I'm using your own argument that the system is inherently fail-safe (as long as you keep the x5/5 levels price hike) to argue your math is probably way too involved and detailed than necessary... :)
 
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Let me start by saying I really agree with your goals! :)

I really think the presentation would improve by giving an example thou'.

Especially the "ei" bits come across as heavily theoretical. A picture tells more than a thousand words!
Thanks, I'll think one up in the next few days. I blame laziness for avoiding an example in the first version :-).

I intentionally had some "heavily" theoretical stuff because it's important to me to have a reasonably firm assurance that the new system is indeed equivalent to the old system. You can skip it; it should be fairly clear that if items tend to be no more than 60% of their full worth that raising treasure by one level (i.e. 38% value) is pretty safe. But if you want to take even later reselling into account and put all the bits together, it's there.

That said, I'm not convinced the 20% sales rate is at fault here. What are you supposed to do with the extra money?

You say yourself the extra gold is all but irrelevant when it comes to buying useful stuff. (Even if you got 100% when selling stuff, as per your example).

Theoretically, nothing you can buy will compare to the things that "drop". Not as long as you don't change the curve, that is how every five levels also fivefold the price.
If you sell old stuff, the buy/sell ratio is not that important due to the exponential price rise over levels. After all, even at 100% stuff that's five levels behind is just 20% of a new item.

However, with random loot, people will need to sell new stuff regularly - stuff that just dropped. Here, the buy/sell ratio matters a lot.

Sure, in practice, there are quite a few items of your level or lower that are desirable. But they are almost all mistakes, pure and simple. Anytime your epic character picks up a bunch of heroic stuff because it is useful, a mistake has (almost by definition) occurred.
Well, that's dependent on specific items. I can well imagine low level items remaining useful, but generally just as an extra option, not as an overall power increase. In any case, that's not too relevant to the wealth system; after all the plain DMG system makes it easy for PCs to acquire low level items too by including a very heft gold amount each level. In any case, this is outside of the scope of this wealth system, for sure ;-).

So why change the 20% sales percentage? Why not change the exponential price hike? (If your goal is to allow players to use money to custom-buy what they don't get through drops).
The exponential price hike is good because it makes it very very hard to sneak past fundamental assumptions by saving smartly or by a party pooling their money. It's a very solid fundamental building block that gives solidity: by having the price rise by a factor 5 every five levels, even a factor 2 or 3 imbalance in wealth just means a few levels advantage in wealth - not even a single +1 on a weapon. That's robust; I don't want to get rid of the exponential scaling for that reason.

In fact, why not keep the system as-is and simply fivefold the amount of random loot in the game?
Edit: I meant "why not increase the amount of loot fivefold when you make it random?"

Your math should quickly tell you that this will amount to a very small increase in player power, because 1) the junk loot remains worthless and 5xworthless=worthless, 2) there's a limited number of slots anyway, very soon any increase will be incremental at best.

And of course 3) by increasing the rate of loot by five, the importance of getting something useful just dropped by 4/5 - essentially you get five tickets to the lottery each level instead of just one*

*) one magic item for each PC except one, who gets gold instead. Except in all those groups where gold is always split equally.

I guess I'm using your own argument that the system is inherently fail-safe (as long as you keep the x5/5 levels price hike) to argue your math is probably way too involved and detailed than necessary... :)
My reasoning behind this choice is in the post titled "Why the 20% sale price needs to go". In short; you can simply grant 5 times the items instead.

But that's more complicated in practice because, well, it involves altering the # of parcels, just adding one level is really easy by comparison - you can run premade adventures with almost no change, just raise each item by one level.

Secondly, you'll have more variance if you simply grant 5x the items. If the sale price is half and you just raise an item by one level, then a lucky PC just "gained" 1 level on one item. If you grant 5x the items, it's not unlikely to have a PC that got lucky and gets several appropriate items; after all you're distributing 20-25 items each level. That might disrupt intra-party balance somewhat. No, this probably won't affect balance in the long run, but balance in the short run is important too.

Handing out that many items is also just more work for the DM; more items to choose, more items to make fit the flavor, etc. Also, I like sometimes handing out an appropriate item - and if the number of items isn't radically different, that's OK; if the number rises dramatically, you need to be careful to not imbalance the game (not to mention the fact that magic items become a lot less dramatic when you find half a dozen each session).

Finally, as a detail I don't like the (small) incentive the current system has whereby PC's try to pick items that remain useful indefinitely. If the sale price is a little higher, it's a little less important to pick out items that will be useful forever; switching is cheaper. This is a small step towards balancing hard-core gamers versus the more relaxed sort that didn't preplan every character choice X levels in advance.

To cut a long excuse short: you're right, you can definitely just increase the number of items by a factor of (slightly less than) 5 and make no further changes without dramatically altering balance. On the other hand, that solution does have a number of small issues which is why I prefer the raise-by-one-level and sell-for-half approach. It's not like that's much more complicated - it's actually simpler in play, even, I hope.
 
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Interesting. I suspect this would work out for a lot of people who prefer the 3e treasure method.

Of course, I tend to actually go the other route by not having buying or selling of items pretty much at all, but also avoiding wish lists. I don't give _completely_ random treasure, though - so there's a hit to verisimilitude - I do give out a selection of things they could use, that have the suckiest and mightiest stuff pruned off, effectively.

I've been thinking on treasure quite a bit lately, cause I am starting up two campaigns this week. One thing I think you'll find with a 50% sell price and the same # of magic items given is that many wondrous items or less useful items are basically just trash (or, rather, residuum to be). I'd rather encourage folks to keep more random stuff, and an increased price for sell actually discourages that sharply.
 

I've been thinking on treasure quite a bit lately, cause I am starting up two campaigns this week. One thing I think you'll find with a 50% sell price and the same # of magic items given is that many wondrous items or less useful items are basically just trash (or, rather, residuum to be). I'd rather encourage folks to keep more random stuff, and an increased price for sell actually discourages that sharply.
I think that's kind of inherent with any largely random system. If you're giving a broad diversity of stuff, then much of it won't be worthwhile. Then you can either have a low selling price and thus a swingy wealth distribution (get lucky and score a high jackpot, or be forced to sell nevertheless), or a less swingy one since PC's are better able to sell or convert magic items. I do suggest that with this system you aim for 10% very well suited items, and 25-50% retention rate (which, I suspect, is a little higher than a fully random distribution would have, to permit some dramatically appropriate tailoring without being so in-your-face as the current system).

Of course, I don't have a problem with the idea of the fact that there'd be an in-game market for items, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this in the first place ;-). Many people obviously dislike the idea; for them, relying on reselling or disenchanting is probably not a good idea.
 

The problem is that I'm referring to things like Wavestrider Boots... which are certainly a worthwhile item to have around, but if you're 1st level looking for a good +1 weapon are totally not worth keeping around. So you'd sell 'em and pick up your new weapon.

It's even worse for Everlasting Provisions, Instant Campsite, Flag of Ale Procurement and other similar items that add a lot of flavor to a game and should be fun to get, but are effectively not worth keeping.

The problem may, I suppose, be that utility and fiddly items are too expensive in the system, but either way I think your system kicks a lot of them to the curb, so I'd want a way around that. Hrmmhrmm.
 

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