Pathfinder 2E Simplified PF2e?

[Prof_Dogg]

If I'm being honest, I've found that it's not the number of rules that inspire roleplaying as much as how much players get get out of the rules. I didn't get more RP out of my group with 5E, which has considerably fewer rules tacked on to its skill system. In fact, I created a set of "skill actions/uses" for my players in the first month because they were hesitant to use skills because they weren't sure what they could actually do with them.

For whatever reason, I think the biggest inhibitor I've seen to RP is just the fantasy landscape sometimes. When I run an FFG Star Wars game, people get into it deep because I think they more deeply understand the universe and can engage with it more. Similarly, when we play Tales from the Loop I think many of them connect with the being a kid and the idea of the 80's that they can engage with the setting more easily.

Wholeheartedly agree there's a setting factor to it as well... There have been games I've ran where nobody got the setting (and that's on me as a GM) even if they got their character.

Groups will experience different (well, to be redundant) experiences that are more complex than any singular factor though so all of these considerations have some weight.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Wholeheartedly agree there's a setting factor to it as well... There have been games I've ran where nobody got the setting (and that's on me as a GM) even if they got their character.

I had an experience like this a few years ago. Some people wanted me to run a superhero game, since they had never played in one. I ran for the three of them and my wife (who's a longtime superhero fan, though coming in mostly originally from animated versions).

It was kind of a disaster. Two of them absolutely couldn't engage with the setting/genre at all, and the third one struggled. They'd keep trying to play it like an urban fantasy game and to be charitable, It Did Not Work.

 

[Kichwas]

Step 1: Remove all feats.

I'm not sold on this as an approach to simplifying PF2E. I don't think it's the feats that make PF2E a medium-light complexity game (I've been at this since 1980, so to me PF2E is only medium-light compared to what I recall from the 3.x and earlier days. I consider 5E to be light complexity and something like BESM - Big Eyes Small Mouth - to be simple complexity).

To make PF2E more simplified, I think you'd want to go after the conditions and maneuvers.

Cut down all the conditions to "can't act" and "takes a -2 penalty". Remove ALL of the combat maneuvers. Doing "stuff" just becomes your roleplay.

This of course means many feats no longer have any purpose... so we are sort of back to feats. But feats by themselves are not the complexity. If you look at a game like BESM there are a ton of things you can write on your character sheet that in the d20-like world seem like feats - but the game is more simple to play than AD&D which had no feats and very little build diversity (outside of what spells you learned if a caster).

I'd personally hate a simplified Pathfinder. Start stripping away pieces of the engine and it loses the very essence that I enjoy.

 

[Lojaan]

Have you seen Hopefinder? It's a zombie apocalypse game using a stripped down version of PF2 - only LVL 1-5, no spells, classes or ancestries. Made by one of the PF2 designers.

I haven't played it but it looks interesting

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I feel like the problem is that because PF2 has so many of these rules that people think that these are the only ways to do something, but that's not really the case. You can still judge things by the situation, but these feats should be looked at as empowering the individual rather than excluding the masses: If you have a situation where someone could intimidate someone with a few words or scare a group, that's fine. But they aren't entitled to it like the feat holders.

I saw the same issue / heard the same complaints with 4e. I think I never had that problem because is started playing i the 80s when it basically assumed you could do anything you could reasonably describe (with DM adjudication of course), when we played 4e it never occurred to us the feats, powers, features, etc. where all we could do. Those were just a starting point!

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Have you seen Hopefinder? It's a zombie apocalypse game using a stripped down version of PF2 - only LVL 1-5, no spells, classes or ancestries. Made by one of the PF2 designers.

I haven't played it but it looks interesting

Sounds interesting, but no classes seem like it wouldn’t keep the “soul” of PF2. Might check it out to see what they did and find some inspiration though. Thank you for the suggestion

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I'd personally hate a simplified Pathfinder. Start stripping away pieces of the engine and it loses the very essence that I enjoy.

That’s the rub isn’t it? Can you simplyify and keep the essence of the game. That answer is going to be different for different people. I don’t think the target audience for such a system is PF2 fans, but people who might be put off by its complexity (real or imagined). So people outside the current sphere of PF2 influence. People like me.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Also, from the discussion over the last page or so: a simplified PF2 would have to take a look at the skill system!

First thought is ditch it completely. Maybe simply ability checked based on your class, ancestry, etc.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That’s the rub isn’t it? Can you simplyify and keep the essence of the game. That answer is going to be different for different people. I don’t think the target audience for such a system is PF2 fans, but people who might be put off by its complexity (real or imagined). So people outside the current sphere of PF2 influence. People like me.

The question is, once you simplify it down, what's going to be left that you'll like better than many extent options? If you can answer that (what to lose and what will be worthwhile that's left when you do) you're on the path to a useful simplification. My own suspicion is the two pieces of rope don't meet in the middle, but that's just me.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Also, from the discussion over the last page or so: a simplified PF2 would have to take a look at the skill system!

First thought is ditch it completely. Maybe simply ability checked based on your class, ancestry, etc.

Honestly, you wouldn't be immensely far from how it can work out in practice as long as you keep the level bonuses.