Simulationist Combat

[Mark CMG]

Check out Hinterwelt's Iridium System - HinterWelt Enterprises

I've played and it moves fast for a fairly detailed combat system.

 

[Argyle King]

Do you mean accurately modeling blow-by-blow combat, or precisely? GURPS is very precise, but not especially accurate. For instance, in real-life you don't perform an All-Out Attack because you feel like it, but because your opponent has revealed on opening. If your GM happened to be a bullet wound trauma specialist who worked in the ER, and also a student of historical martial arts and target shooting, you could use something like Fudge and get very accurate results, although the system itself would not be precise in how those outcomes were generated.

Details <> realism

Are we talking about realism, or something else?

That sounds more like poor tactics on the player's part rather than a problem with the system being able to model realistic combat.

Though, on the other hand, it depends upon the character. All Out might be the method used by a mook or a non-skilled combatant to hope for a lucky shot.

 

[pawsplay]

That sounds more like poor tactics on the player's part rather than a problem with the system being able to model realistic combat.

Though, on the other hand, it depends upon the character. All Out might be the method used by a mook or a non-skilled combatant to hope for a lucky shot.

Why is it poor tactics?

 

[Argyle King]

Why is it poor tactics?

Generally speaking, just willy nilly going all out all the time and never having defenses tends to be bad for the character's health.

I should retract what I said a little bit. I wouldn't view it as poor all the time, but I don't believe fighting in that manner all day every day would be good.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I know, I know. What I'm asking for here hasn't been written.

Not for d20 it hasn't, no.

The list of contenders would have to include Mongoose RuneQuest II, GURPS (any edition), The Riddle of Steel, Artesia: Adventures in the Known World... and a few others, no doubt.

Quite honestly, based on what I have seen of your many d20 house rules posts, it strikes me that you would be better off departing from the "d20 family" of systems altogether, and finding something that truly caters to your wishes and demands in the first place. But then, I am only talking from experience, not "objectively" at all.

Good luck, Water Bob, whatever you decide.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Why is it poor tactics?

I think this depends on what all out attack means flavorwise. Some people have a more aggresive style wheras others tend to fight defensively. I think all out attack reflect this pretty accurately for a game. Especially when few fighters are defensive or offensive all the time. I do think you make agreat point about openings and few games reflect that accurately ( but in fairness that is hard to do). One thing id like to see in games is more counter attack mechanics)

 

[Water Bob]

Quite honestly, based on what I have seen of your many d20 house rules posts, it strikes me that you would be better off departing from the "d20 family" of systems altogether, and finding something that truly caters to your wishes and demands in the first place.

My many "house rule" posts are deceiving. I like to talk mechanics. I like to question things. It helps me understand the system better.

But, even though I have all those discussions, you might be very surprised to see that, at least in this point in my game, I don't use a single house rule. My game is completely RAW. I do use a few optional rules, but those are offical d20 options (like the facing rules or active defense).

Just because I talk about it doesn't mean I will implement it in my game.

 

[mmadsen]

GURPS is very precise, but not especially accurate.

This precision-without-accuracy is what most people mean by realism, when, of course, it's just detail -- unrealistic detail. D&D is imprecise and inaccurate, so the only alternative, apparently, is hyper-precise and "thus" accurate.

For instance, in real-life you don't perform an All-Out Attack because you feel like it, but because your opponent has revealed an opening.

Exactly. If you pick up all the extra GURPS books for "realistic" combat, you find that a character's best option is, for instance, to spin kick his opponent to the head. So, he always performs that exact same attack. It's always optimal.

If your GM happened to be a bullet wound trauma specialist who worked in the ER, and also a student of historical martial arts and target shooting, you could use something like Fudge and get very accurate results, although the system itself would not be precise in how those outcomes were generated.

In fact, this mirrors the evolution of "real" war games, the ones used by the German military to train officers for war. They started off with plenty of rules compared to non-war games, but they had to keep adding more and more rules for "realism" -- until learning and running the game began to squeeze out learning about tactics and how to lead troops.

Eventually they moved to a "free" war game, where experienced officers made calls based on their own judgment. (This introduced a new problem, largely because they removed randomization, so the outcome was always the most likely outcome based on the officer's experience from the last war.)

Anyway, let me reiterate that realism and detail are not synonyms.

 

[Aus_Snow]

My many "house rule" posts are deceiving. I like to talk mechanics. I like to question things. It helps me understand the system better.

But, even though I have all those discussions, you might be very surprised to see that, at least in this point in my game, I don't use a single house rule. My game is completely RAW. I do use a few optional rules, but those are offical d20 options (like the facing rules or active defense).

Just because I talk about it doesn't mean I will implement it in my game.

Fair enough. It's just the impression I got, from various threads, including this one - that you aren't particularly happy with how the d20 engine works for what you are wanting, RPG-wise. My mistake, if that's not the case. I'm glad you are happy with d20, and may your future gaming with it be awesome.

However, I would still suggest, humbly or otherwise , that you might want to also try one of the systems I mentioned, or indeed, some other(s) perhaps. Some of them work much, much better for "simulated combat" and the like. Seriously. d20 is not even anywhere near the top of the list of games I would recommend, for that kind of thing, for oh so many reasons. And yes, that includes Mongoose's Conan RPG, which by the way, I happen to quite like, even so. Regardless of the fact that various other systems can do Conan (et al) so much better.

Just a thought.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Pawsplay made an important distinction between accuracy and detail. To that i would add feel. A system that reflects real combat accurately or in detail isn't necessarily going to have the feel of authentic combat.