D&D 5E SJ Ship to Ship Battles (& Vehicle Rules in General)

[MonsterEnvy]

This would mean that unlike "real" ships (or the ones in Saltmarsh), Spelljammers can't travel 24 hours a day. Interesting.

Edit: Oh no, it says that they travel 100 million miles in 24 hours and the spelljamming helm makes "minor course-corrections on its own" which means that the Spelljammer CAN get up and go to bed during long-distance travel. Obviously during combat, the Spelljammer needs to pilot the ship.

I DID see somewhere a mention of a "pilot" separately from a Spelljammer. I wonder if some of the ships can also be sailed "normally" (either on water or in wildspace). I'll see if I can find it...

Well the spelljammer if needed can just sleep on the helm.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

IIRC, despite the fact that the various weapons aboard a Spelljammer takes multiple actions to man/load/fire, ships (at least according to Ghosts of Saltmarsh/Aqisitions Incorporated) can take up to three actions as long as their number of crew members don't dip down a certain threshold. As for attacking the Captain or what not, it's quite possible but there is also the possibility that depending on the area WHERE the opposing Captain is at, there could be 5E cover rules in play. Ducking behind a mast/guard rail/or whatever would offer some degree of protection. Whether or not it overcomes the Damage Threshold in the process is another thing altogether.

As for attacking things, there is not only the Siege Weapons aboard a Spelljammer vessel, but also other things, such as Archers and Spellcasters, that can be used to target opposing crew members and/or Siege Weaponry.

I think as well, there is a rule, in Saltmarsh, where the level of a spell you cast gave you a number of D6s you would roll. And the number you rolled on the d6 would've been the number of opposing crew members incapacitated/downed or what not. Perhaps a similar approach could be used for Siege Weaponry when it is used to attack crew directly. (of course, that's for opposing crew that uses the Commoner statblock i would assume. Any special character/npc/whatever would get saving rolls.)

I don’t think there is much need for rolling for extra crew members dying. Spelljamming Ships have much smaller crews than terrestrial ships.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I'm generally a big 5e fan but I do feel like any time they do a combat subsystem (be it mounted combat, underwater combat, mass combat, or ship combat) the designers go for a level of simplicity that just doesn't simulate anything in a way that is remotely satisfying.

I think one solution to the captain problem is to give siege weapons disadvantage attacking anything that is not a huge object (or whatever). Even better, would be to give them some sort of penalty other than disadvantage, because they will often be firing from a disadvantaged range already at which point we would be right back in the situation of it being just as easy to hit the captain as the ship. A -10 penalty doesn't seem unreasonable.

Another solution is to stick with the RAW and just adapt the narrative reality to fit the game rules. In a world where individual crew members could be targeted just as easy as the broadside of the ship, captains probably wouldn't parade around on decks in fancy captain hats. Such things were worn in part because in an age when weapons weren't really accurate enough to target officers with much consistency the morale benefits of seeing officers stand tall in the face of danger could outweighed the probability of them being shot. In a D&D weapon scenario it makes a lot more sense for them to be A) below deck, B) above deck but dressed like any other crew member, or C) on deck and clearly the captain but fully armored up (because in D&D plate armor and a shield will save you from a canonball).

Clearly the rules presented do not facilitate the narrative you want (or that most people would imagine) for ship combat. Ultimately the core decision is to what extent you want to rework the rules to fit the narrative you want and to what extent you want to rework the narrative to fit the rules presented.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm generally a big 5e fan but I do feel like any time they do a combat subsystem (be it mounted combat, underwater combat, mass combat, or ship combat) the designers go for a level of simplicity that just doesn't simulate anything in a way that is remotely satisfying.

I think one solution to the captain problem is to give siege weapons disadvantage attacking anything that is not a huge object (or whatever). Even better, would be to give them some sort of penalty other than disadvantage, because they will often be firing from a disadvantaged range already at which point we would be right back in the situation of it being just as easy to hit the captain as the ship. A -10 penalty doesn't seem unreasonable.

Another solution is to stick with the RAW and just adapt the narrative reality to fit the game rules. In a world where individual crew members could be targeted just as easy as the broadside of the ship, captains probably wouldn't parade around on decks in fancy captain hats. Such things were worn in part because in an age when weapons weren't really accurate enough to target officers with much consistency the morale benefits of seeing officers stand tall in the face of danger could outweighed the probability of them being shot. In a D&D weapon scenario it makes a lot more sense for them to be A) below deck, B) above deck but dressed like any other crew member, or C) on deck and clearly the captain but fully armored up (because in D&D plate armor and a shield will save you from a canonball).

Clearly the rules presented do not facilitate the narrative you want (or that most people would imagine) for ship combat. Ultimately the core decision is to what extent you want to rework the rules to fit the narrative you want and to what extent you want to rework the narrative to fit the rules presented.

Good points. I understand that you often have to sacrifice simplicity for simulation - but in this case I feel like there must be a happy middle ground (if not a system that would be just (or nearly) as simple but do a better job of a fun ship-to-ship combat.)

It's not even just that - it's that these rules, as written, don't even work all that well. Or at least, I must not understand how they're intended to be used. I can easily make up "patches" so that I can run it and have my players enjoy themselves - but I'm pretty sure that in doing so, I'm nearly making it up as I go along.

 

[Weiley31]

I don’t think there is much need for rolling for extra crew members dying. Spelljamming Ships have much smaller crews than terrestrial ships.

That's why I use the 2E Spelljammer crew sizes.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

That's why I use the 2E Spelljammer crew sizes.

In 2e do the crew "help" the spelljammer pilot the ship (y'know, with some actual use of the sails) or anything like that?

The 5e Crew sizes appear to be minimum crew to operate the ship and fire its weapons. Bare minimum, which shouldn't usually correspond all that close to the average.

 

[Stormonu]

Sadly, the harder I start looking at the rules in SJ, the more they look phoned in, and glossed over at that. There's a lot holes in the travel rules, much less the combat rules that really should have had a few more pages devoted to them.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Sadly, the harder I start looking at the rules in SJ, the more they look phoned in, and glossed over at that. There's a lot holes in the travel rules, much less the combat rules that really should have had a few more pages devoted to them.

I noticed something interesting today. So... ships go either 100 million miles a day "Jamming Speed!" I like to call it! OR they go 3 to 8 mph if they are "close to an object with its own air envelope". Nothing in between. So it would take approximately 15 hours to leave the surface of an earth-like planet. (If you play by RAW, this might cause problems in the first part of the adventure!)

To travel from something like earth to something like the moon would take five and a half years, assuming you consider "within sight" (the only criteria they give us for what "close" means) to mean the spelljammer helm keeps the ship stuck at "flying speed".

Now, I don't really care about those kinds of details, and I'll just assume that the spelljammer can reach speeds between the two extremes. (The speed of "however fast I want it to be - shut up!") But I still found it amusing.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I noticed something interesting today. So... ships go either 100 million miles a day "Jamming Speed!" I like to call it! OR they go 3 to 8 mph if they are "close to an object with its own air envelope". Nothing in between. So it would take approximately 15 hours to leave the surface of an earth-like planet. (If you play by RAW, this might cause problems in the first part of the adventure!)

To travel from something like earth to something like the moon would take five and a half years, assuming you consider "within sight" (the only criteria they give us for what "close" means) to mean the spelljammer helm keeps the ship stuck at "flying speed".

Now, I don't really care about those kinds of details, and I'll just assume that the spelljammer can reach speeds between the two extremes. (The speed of "however fast I want it to be - shut up!") But I still found it amusing.

"Close" is defined as being within 1 mile of the object or its air envelope on page 23, in the Spelljamming Helm section. You can, of course, voluntarily slow down at larger ranges.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

"Close" is defined as being within 1 mile of the object or its air envelope on page 23, in the Spelljamming Helm section. You can, of course, voluntarily slow down at larger ranges.

Ah. Good to know. Funny that that information is in the description of a Spelljamming Helm as a magic item, rather than under "How Spelljamming Works". I was going by the entry on "Speed" which says (important parts bold):

When cruising through space, a spelljamming ship can travel 100 million miles in 24 hours. At this speed, the spelljamming helm makes minor course corrections on its own to avoid collisions with meteorites, other detritus, and space-dwelling creatures. These slight course corrections sometimes cause mild space sickness, which is a harmless affliction common among those who aren’t accustomed to space travel.

A spelljamming ship automatically slows to its flying speed when it comes close to something big enough to have its own air envelope and gravity plane, such as another ship, a kindori, an asteroid, or a planet. The exact distance between the obstacle and the ship is for the DM to decide, but whatever obstacle caused the ship to slow down is usually close enough to be seen by creatures on deck. While moving at its flying speed, a spelljamming ship is generally as maneuverable as a seafaring vessel of a similar size.