Skill Challenge Feedback

[GameDoc]

Although it seems a bit gauche to link to my own post, this is a checklist I use that might be helpful: is it a skill challenge?

JINX!!!

The very next post under the one you linked was me soliciting input on a skill challenge where players have to find an antidote to poison. It's the same campaign and the actual scenario that set up the one we are discussing now.

 

[Piratecat]

I would add the quartz in as a character who is trying to confuse and push at the PCs as hard as it can. You'll have to define what it wants and what it can do.

That'a a great idea. I did something similar once when my group faced an illithid elder brain. Out of game, as the DM, I started giving them terrible advice. "Sure, you could go forward, but it'd probably be a lot more effective to try and take that small dark passage on your right. It's probably blessed as well; you have the feeling as you stand outside it that you will succeed only if you leave your weapons here."

They picked up on it pretty quickly, and it was a lot of fun. In this case failure could mean that you tell them allies look or act like enemies and that you're describing the world wrong. "What do you mean I'm drowning, this is a clear forest path!" when the mentally confused PC actually blundered into a lake.

 

[Quickleaf]

Really though, although you've listed a lot of information here, there's one, and ONLY ONE piece that's relevant: the next stage of your quest is to go to the Grove of the Dead.

Exactly. And you also have the narrative disconnect, where a player might use history early on and the entire group just up and decides to ditch these annoying elves and head to the grove. After 2 or 3 successes.

Additionally, you've got the "no plan for failure" problem. If the PCs need to go to the Grove of the Dead next, and they fail this challenge, then... ummm. What?

It sounds like you want to provide a way for the PCs to be alert to coming Far Realm danger ahead. This seems to me that their next stop in the grove is already a forgone conclusion. I like Piratecat's suggestion about the unreliable narrative on failures, something I've also used to good effect.

I love skill challenges. So, I'm sorry to say this, but... this probably shouldn't be a skill challenge.

Yeah I'm with mudlock on this. Why exactly do you want a skill challenge here?

 

[GameDoc]

It really doesn't have to be a skill challenge. I guess I am drawn to the idea of allowing a skill-based adventure element to yield XP and/or treasure. It really reinforces that this is a role-playing game and not just combat simulation. I could just hand wave it and give them 100 XP each for using skills as part of good role-playing.

Maybe something is eluding me, but I just can't seem to make skill challenges work. Maybe it's 20 years of pre 4e D&D influencing my adventure design in a way that isn't compatible with the concept.

When I sit down to design one, they wind up either being very contrived or far more trouble than they are worth. So ultimately I just wind up with a list of potential skill checks that help with the narrative elements of the story.

 

[Riastlin]

Maybe something is eluding me, but I just can't seem to make skill challenges work. Maybe it's 20 years of pre 4e D&D influencing my adventure design in a way that isn't compatible with the concept.

I know what you mean. Personally, I love the idea of skill challenges. The problem though is getting them to flow naturally, preserve the roleplay aspect, while also adhering to the "mechanics" of the system, particularly the success/failure.

For me, its a bit of a mixed bag. If I try to keep the flow in character and someone says "What do I know about the crystal?" if I say, well, you'd need to do a nature or arcana check, invariably, everyone at the table will toss a die. So you get a situation where maybe 3 people made their check while the other three missed. Technically, they have now failed the challenge, yet might not have even realized they were in a challenge to begin with.

On the other hand, if I mention that its a SC, then invariably, it ends up "I try Arcana." "I'll try history." "Can I try Diplomacy?" and thus, the flow is completely gone. It might as well be a combat encounter at this point.

The other element I struggle with is in designing challenges that will involve most/all of the party. Information challenges tend to fall to one or two characters, as do social challenges, etc. Physical challenges make the wizard cringe as well. One thing I have found to help overcome all of the above, is to come up with challenges that involve group checks wherein everyone has to make a check, but only have the group needs to succeed. If half the group succeeds, it counts as 1 success. This works for the chase scenes, or the overland travel challenges, etc. but doesn't work for all cases.

Ironically, I think I did at one point design a really great SC. It was multi-tiered, requiring different types of checks at each tier, and was set up so that pretty much everyone in the group was assured of being able to provide useful input. Unfortunately, the first tier consisted of disabling the arcane runes warding the area and the Artificer promptly rolled 3 consecutive failures, the totals of the three rolls combined was 5 before modifiers.

Bringing this back on point to the original topic though, I really like the idea of the crystal pushing back. Failure could mean that the party still realizes that they need to go to the grove, only now they suffer a penalty against the psychic attacks rather than a bonus since the crystal has weakened their resolve and/or the crystal is also able to alert its allies at the Grove that the PCs are coming, so the allies get a surprise round in and are in prime position. Success gives the PCs a bonus to defense against psychic attacks and/or allows them a surprise round on the crystal's allies in the grove as they are able to supress its ability to communicate with them. Just a thought.

 

[Dungeoneer]

GameDoc, I entirely get what you're saying about the difficulties of making skill challenges flow narratively.

I like Skill Challenges a lot, at least conceptually. I've also run some really successful and enjoyable ones. And I've run some that were... not so much. SCs make a certain intuitive sense to me, but they definitely don't work equally well in all situations. I think the failing of the Skill Challenge system as presented in 4e is that it's too generalized.

The basic system of successes and failures is a great fit for some scenarios, but you really have to stretch it for others. For instance, one of the classic examples of an SC is trying to persuade a high-ranking NPC to do something. But actually this doesn't make much sense to me (and I think a lot of people) as an SC and I wouldn't even begin to know how to run one.

In a real persuasion situation, you have to identify what the other party really wants and find a way to satisfy that. You don't just batter them with arguments until they give in. Skill Challenges don't model this very well, IMHO.

What I would like to see are more specific versions of skill challenges that suit different scenarios. Maybe a special system of diplomacy skill challenges, for starters.

The kinds of scenarios where Skill Challenges not only work really well as written but also flow narratively are those where players need to perform an action repeatedly with a time limit. Some examples of this include disarming a bomb; stopping a ritual; performing a ritual; piloting a vehicle and escaping from an especially elaborate trap.

For instance with the ritual SC you can have your wizard performing arcana checks while the other players use their creativity to keep Bad Stuff from happening and finding ways to aid him or her. There's no mystery to the primary skill (arcana, duh) but there's a lot of built in tension as the party pulls together to make it happen and fight off interdimensional bats or whatever.

For that kind of scenario the success/failure mechanic is really intuitive, the skill checks you need are explicit, and player creativity is encouraged. Plus, it makes for a really tense skill challenge!

Another scenario that's a pretty good fit for the SC system as written is one where the scene is progressing through different phases, i.e. Tthe Chase Scene'. In this scenario each round something different happens and the players have to figure out a way to deal with it. One example which I've run before is escaping from the BBEG's fortress while it is magically self-destructing all around them. First they have to dodge falling masonry, then they have to fend off a band of fleeing goblins, then they have to jump over a yawning crevice, etc.

In this example, though, if you want failure to be something other than a TPK you need a resource to deplete. Healing surges are a common one, although you could come up with others (I've found that Dark Sun 4e's idea of 'survival days' makes a great resource).

Of course this is kind of a special case version of the Skill Challenge framework. I think it would help a lot of DMs out if the case was made explicit.

Overland travel is another potential Skill Challenge scenario that has its own special requirements. You want player resources to deplete, but in this case you also want to vary the penalty for failure. Having a party of kobolds show up every time the party fails a check in the wilderness could get a bit dull.

The point is that the DMG makes it sound like you can and should use Skill Challenges for everything that happens outside of combat. In actual practice, there are a few specific types of scenarios where Skill Challenges work really well and a whole host where they don't (or at least where they need heavy modification first). Knowing which is which requires some experience with them. It's too bad that there isn't more published material to help DMs out in this regard.

 

[Piratecat]

Maybe something is eluding me, but I just can't seem to make skill challenges work... ...When I sit down to design one, they wind up either being very contrived or far more trouble than they are worth. So ultimately I just wind up with a list of potential skill checks that help with the narrative elements of the story.

That's definitely not how I think skill challenges should feel. While I'm not an expert on them, we just had a really good conversation about skill challenges in my campaign analysis thread. Start here -- http://www.enworld.org/forum/5437965-post1059.html -- and if that's useful, click through to the end of the thread to see a lot of good advice from people about their design.

 

[GameDoc]

Thanks for the guidance and comisseration

I think I like the idea of the quartz being a threat of some sort. I don't want to make it sentient (if for no other reason to avoid being accused of ripping off R. A. Salvatore), but I think it might work as a sort of passive and insidious magical effect. It just amplifies the fears of anyone in proximity.

The skill challenge (if it is salvagable) could be recognizing the thing for what it is, thus rendering the party immune to it's effects and resistant to similar effects for the rest fo the adventure: "Hey those aren't drow, they're wilden, let's talk to them instead of attacking!" The encounter goes from hostile combat to helpful roleplay, leaving them with more resources for the climactic battle with the id fiends.

That sort of changes my idea for the grove itself. Instead of a big meteorite fragment with a few broken shards laying around, its just a bunch of shards scattered about. Makes the area easier to "cleanse" once you know what you are looking for. If the players figure it out, they could tell the wilden and make a new ally.

Incidentally, the report of drow in the forest should pique their concerns, even if they never surmise it was a delusion. The overall story of the campaign is that the reqion is being invaded by hostile forces. I think the players will think it warrants investigation one way or another.

 

[LostSoul]

I think I like the idea of the quartz being a threat of some sort. I don't want to make it sentient (if for no other reason to avoid being accused of ripping off R. A. Salvatore), but I think it might work as a sort of passive and insidious magical effect. It just amplifies the fears of anyone in proximity.

Ah, what I meant by "character" was simply that it wanted something (in the sense that plutonium "wants" to irradiate you - this would be the "insidious" bit) and could do something to get it (via magical effect). I find it's easier to deal with skill challenges with inanimate objects, like the wilderness, if I think in those terms.

 

[GameDoc]

Ah, what I meant by "character" was simply that it wanted something (in the sense that plutonium "wants" to irradiate you - this would be the "insidious" bit) and could do something to get it (via magical effect). I find it's easier to deal with skill challenges with inanimate objects, like the wilderness, if I think in those terms.

Cool.