Skill challenge success and failure

[bert1000]

Just got the DMG2, and was reading over the skill challenge section. Personally, I think skill challenges can be fantastic if handled well, and I think the DMG2 has great advice on getting more from this often demonized 4e mechanic. I like Stalker’s Obsidian system better than the official version, but a lot of the DMG2 advice and my question below applies to both versions:

What are good rewards and penalties for winning or losing a skill challenge?

This is an area that I don’t think has gotten enough attention, even with the DMG2. IMO, a lot of the published skill challenges still seem to have problematic rewards and penalties.

For instance, I see a lot of reliance on “fail and you enter combat” with the combat being a level appropriate (or lower) combat. Unless there is some other consequence as well (e.g., you need to reach the bandits before they execute the maiden and this unintended combat delays you), this is just another opportunity for XP and not really a penalty at all.

What are some of the rewards and penalties that you have used that really matter? I want my players to say “damn, I wish we would have won that skill challenge”. Are people finding that story rewards/penalties (e.g., the town is wiped out because you got there too late) are more powerful incentives to get players to care than mechanical rewards/penalties (e.g., loss of healing surges, mechanical advantage to the next combat)?

 

[wayne62682]

I honestly thought the whole point of the skill challenge was to have a combat that's not a combat type situation, and if you failed it then the intended consequence IS that you end up having a "real" fight to offset the lost XP from the skill challenge?

I mean... if you add a skill challenge in place of a combat, then that XP factors into the assumed XP the party will get from the adventure; if they fail the skill challenge then they don't get the XP for it, but they're now behind the expected curve, and that's why it normally results in an additional combat - to even them out again.

 

[Skywalker]

What are some of the rewards and penalties that you have used that really matter?

The main thing is to ensure that failure is still fun and the story can continue to move.

I agree that combat is not a good failure for a SC. I tend to add disadvantages to combat instead. These can be positional (surpirse is good), conditions, or even new hazards.

I have also awarded rerolls for the GM (failure) and players (successes) on a divininational Skill Challenge. That worked out well.

 

[Thaumaturge]

Failure in the short term is just a cool thing that happened along the way to ultimate success for most adventure stories. Failure-> combat is one way to go, but I think failure->plot consequences will ring true with more players. Generally, I like to follow-up a failed skill challenge with another, different, skill challenge.

If, for example, your failed skill challenge was an 'infiltrate this area' type SC, then a failure might lead to an urban chase through the streets. If this is failed, the PCs are arrested or detained, and an 'escape from prison' would happen. If this failed, I might finally relent and have a 'just fight our way out of this place' running combat/skill challenge.

If you are interested in skill challenges and don't subscribe to the DDi, it is probably worth it to subscribe for one month and get all of the Mearls articles on the topic.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Skywalker]

If you are interested in skill challenges and don't subscribe to the DDi, it is probably worth it to subscribe for one month and get all of the Mearls articles on the topic.

The DMG2 also covers this ground quite well.

 

[catsclaw227]

If you are interested in skill challenges and don't subscribe to the DDi, it is probably worth it to subscribe for one month and get all of the Mearls articles on the topic.

Is there a compiled PDF (or something) of all his skill challenge articles? I would think that this would be a good ongoing series for maintaining an larger, updating PDF.

I imagine other article series' could do this as well. A compiled "Class Essentials" PDF for example.

 

[fba827]

The majority of our skill challenge rewards/failures are for bonuses/penalties in story. our skill challenges don't usually lead to combats on a failure.
And the players are okay with it because we run story-heavy campaigns.


some examples i can think of off the top of my head (in over-simplified form)

Success=find out about an enemy weakness
Failure=the later fight against said enemy was harder because they didn't know the weakness

Success=got a ritual book (that they weren't expecting, they thought success=they got to live, so the ritual book was a little boon on top of being able to walk away from the dragon still breathing)
Failure=the dragon would not help them in a certain future situation that the pcs don't know about yet

success=the king tolerates them
failure=kicked out and won't listen or send aid for the situation

success=get past the guards
failure=can't get in through the gate and have to find another much more difficult way in

and so on ...

 

[bert1000]

I agree that combat is not a good failure for a SC. I tend to add disadvantages to combat instead. These can be positional (surpirse is good), conditions, or even new hazards.

This is ok, but still feels a little artificial to me. Some small advantage (e.g., surprise round) or disadvantage (e.g., everyone loses a healing surge) can be useful but likely doesn't really make a difference. If the combat turns from Level + 3 to level + 5 (likely to kill a PC or TPK), however, then the SC outcome is more meaningful. The underlying cause of this may be the fact that PCs are suppose to win a given combat 99% of the time. So, given some advantage or disadvantge that doesn't alter those odds much doesn't feel like it matters.

This keeps leading me back to more story results vs. short term mechancial / combat results.

 

[Asmor]

Is there a compiled PDF (or something) of all his skill challenge articles? I would think that this would be a good ongoing series for maintaining an larger, updating PDF.

I imagine other article series' could do this as well. A compiled "Class Essentials" PDF for example.

I don't believe there is, but I have a tiddlywiki which I try to keep up to date that categorizes everything from Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Here's a list of all the Ruling Skill Challenges columns