Skill Challenge success calculator

baudot

First Post
I threw this tool together last night to calculate the odds on skill challenges:
http://76.79.193.188/SkillChallenge.php

This will likely reinforce many of the same conclusions people are coming to in threads like http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=229919&page=1&pp=15 but I hope you'll play with it yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Some observations from examining the rules as I was doing this:
1) The most obvious reason that skill challenges get so difficult is that the distribution of success and failure patterns on the dice is distributed along Pascal's Triangle. Since we're getting only a tail of the triangle rather than half of it, this gets more punishing as the difficulty of the challenge rises. Even if you have high skill levels, factorials (making up the individual cells of the triangle) grow faster than exponentials (making up your odds of each cell), so higher complexity challenges will be very likely to fail the party.

2) The easiest way to bring the system up to a base 50/50 success chance is to get the party to an averaeg skill level and other die modifier of 9+level adjustment, and give them a way to earn a number of failures forgiven as the complexity+1. The failures forgiven moves our permutation distribution back to the center of Pascal's Triangle, and the 9 skill gives them a 50% chance of success per roll. I like this approach because it doesn't require a rewrite of the rules, just a new tradition in skill challenge design. Skill challenges will take about 50% more rolls to resolve this way, but that suits my tastes as a storyteller.

3) Using healing surges in place of failures that can end the challenge for half the checks (as in the sidebar on DMGp76) also gives a 50% success chance for the party at ~9 skill.
 

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I wonder how the math would work out if your failures had to be all in a row for you to fail, so for instance what would be the probability of success, if you needed 4 successes before 2 consecutive failures.
 

That would get too easy at higher complexities, very fast, especially for high skill level parties. It would also make it important to game the initiative order, to avoid clumping your unskilled party members together.
 

the consecutive way

It was the way used for d20 modern incantations, which were a lot like the rituals, Epic magic, and skill challenges rolled into one.
 

The odds of a party, each of whose members have a skill of +9, completing a easy level 1 challenge of complexity 1 is: 63%.

The odds of a party, each of whose members have a skill of +9, completing a easy level 1 challenge of complexity 2 is: 67%.


:blink blink: So for easy challenges, the higher the complexity the easier chance of success... That can't be right, I'm guessing the math is off somewhere.
 


skill challenges

Great concept: weird math.

Given that the main complaint is they are much too hard: what if there was a rule saying "use the unmodified table on p42 for skill challenges" or "skill challenges are an exception to the +5 rule for skill check DCs" Would they suddenly become trivially easy, or would it mostly solve the problems with them?

I doubt it would fix the main problems, but it would be a start.
 

Does this include group challenges?
If my intuition is correct. A typical group will have one character with (1/2 level) +7 or so in the main skill.
If four people aid, 2 should add +2 each roll (assuming no skill crossover).

That would make the main challenge roll +11 instead of +7
That should have a big impact on the success chances. Or am I missing something.
 

scholz said:
Does this include group challenges?
If my intuition is correct. A typical group will have one character with (1/2 level) +7 or so in the main skill.
If four people aid, 2 should add +2 each roll (assuming no skill crossover).

That would make the main challenge roll +11 instead of +7
That should have a big impact on the success chances. Or am I missing something.
If the DM gives the opportunity for unlimited adds, then there's no reason not to push for the +8 on all skill checks for maximum assistance. At that point, things are too easy again. Hopefully we're designing challenges with a limit on how players can assist each other.

As for the question of how would it work with everyone getting a +2 here, or all checks being 5 easier, as above, plug it into the calculator and see. :) That's why I wrote it.

To see everything with a +2 bonus, just add it to the skill.
To see everything 5 easier, just downgrade all difficulties by one, so hard challenges become moderate challenges, and moderate challenges become easy challenges. (Actually, this only works at level 1-3. After that the challenges are 4 DC apart rather than 5.)
 

I would like to see a calculator that lets you set the DC yourself, and lets you add (at your option) probable bonuses from aid-another and secondary skill usage and circumstance bonuses.
 

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