Skill Challenges - Help Me Understand

[Rafe]

I'm attempting to run 1-2 skill challenges every level for my group of 6 players, but the last time I ran a skill challenge, it just seemed like 'round-the-table rolling.

The situation: a group of disgruntled refugees splintered off from the main group the PCs were escorting to a safer territory. The splinter group was headed somewhere the PCs wanted to check out first, but they couldn't leave the main group of refugees. So in the night, three of them went out to obstruct the main roadway (foothills/craggy pass) to buy time. I made it a Complexity 3 (8 successes before 3 failures), level 1 challenge with the primary skills being Perception and Nature opening up Athletics, Endurance and Thievery (it was a trap of sorts).

As I said, they just went around the table rolling. It really didn't seem to add much, though I described as best I could the effects of each roll and how it added up to creating the kind of obstacle they wanted... or how a failed roll detracted slightly from what they were looking for.

How would you have run this skill challenge? I'm trying to get an idea for how to run them properly. I love the idea of skill challenges, but I guess I just don't "get" them.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Lord_Q]

From your description, i'd say the problem is that you let them just roll and then you told the what they did/what happened. If that is the case the best way to transition to more interesting skill challenges would probably be to share the burdon of description with the players. For example:

instead of this:
Player - "I use nature... i rolled a 23"
DM - "Alright, you search the woods sarounding the path for a large log, you find one and use it for the main structure of the roadblock"

try:
Player - "I want to use nature"
DM - "ok, how?"
Player - "um... how about i search the woods for materials?"
DM - "ok, since you rolled a 23, you manage to find a large fallen log. the bulk of the wood is still sound and it would make an exelent component for your roadblock"

ideally after prompting your players to give some though of their own to how their skills are being used they'll eventually start doing it on their own without needing to be encouraged.

 

[Rafe]

Good call, Lord_Q. It's funny, but that's how I typically prompt my players. Odd that I didn't think of doing so in the skill challenge. I'll definitely let them lead the challenge scenarios going forward. That will help engage them and make them feel like rolling isn't the only thing happening.

Cheers!

 

[D'karr]

As I said, they just went around the table rolling. It really didn't seem to add much, though I described as best I could the effects of each roll and how it added up to creating the kind of obstacle they wanted... or how a failed roll detracted slightly from what they were looking for.

How would you have run this skill challenge? I'm trying to get an idea for how to run them properly. I love the idea of skill challenges, but I guess I just don't "get" them.

Thanks in advance!

My first skill challenge experience (DDXP), as a player, was somewhat similar. Then I had a different DM and the difference was night to day. Since then I've run probably over 80 skill challenges and my player experience with that second DM is what I've tried to emulate.

First, give the players a clear understanding of the goal. What are they trying to achieve with this Skill Challenge? If the goal is to find a path through the jungle and survive the horrible environment, describe it in detail. If they don't understand what they are trying to achieve they will be confused. Optionally you can tell them which skills are primary, though that adds a level of metagame that steals away the immersion.

You can have them go around the table or roll initiative. In the above example the find a path goal would probably be attempted by some only, but the survive the weather extremes needs to be attempted by all (maybe a once a day roll or once an hour of travel roll.) Also describe in detail.

When a player is going to roll, don't just have them roll. Let them tell you what they are going to attempt. That gives you a chance to determine if there are any bonuses or penalties. It also allows others to hear what is going on and attempt to assist.

DM: Okay, you guys find yourselves in a triple canopy jungle. The heat and humidity is overwhelming. You are sure that this heat will affect you unfavorably as you travel. Your quarry has escaped and you will have to find a way back to the coast on your own. Okay player 1, what would you like to do?

Player 1: I'm going to roll Perception.
DM: Describe to me what your character wants to do. How is he going to use perception and for what?
Player 1: Well, I'm going to climb up a tree to see if I see a path.
Player 2: Oh, I'd like to assist him in getting up the tree.
DM: Okay, Player 2 how do you plan to assist.
Player 2: I'll throw a rope over one of the high branches and use it to haul him up.
DM: Okay, Player 2 roll an Athletics roll to get the rope there.
Player 2: My athletics is +0 but my Acrobatics is +5 can I try it with that?
DM: Well, I can see how you could use your agility instead of your strength to get the rope there. However it is a ways off so make the roll with a -2.
Player 2: I rolled a 17 with the -2 a 15.
DM: Very well, you send the rope skirting through the air easily avoiding other branches. Player 1 with the assistance of Player 2 you are able to get to a much higher vantage point so Add +2 to your Perception Check.
Player 1: Okay, I'm also going to use that spyglass that we found in the hut.
DM: Okay add and additional +2.
Player 1: I rolled a 12, with the +4 I get a 16.
DM: You see the beginnings of a path that leads to the north. That is one success.
Player 1: I'll let the group know where the path is.
DM: Player 3, what do you want to do?
Player 3: I'd like to use Nature to follow the path?
DM: Very well, describe what you'd like to do.
Player 3: I'd like to get one of those machetes we found in the hut and use it to clear the path for everyone to follow.
DM: Roll your Nature or Perception to follow the path. Since you are clearing some of it with the machete add a +1 to your roll.
Player 3: I rolled a 14, with the +1 that's a 15.
DM: You clear a bit of the path and notice that it veers to the north but quickly changes to the west. There are some tracks on the path but you can not identify them. That is one success. Player 4 what would you like to do?
Player 4: Can I use perception to know what the tracks are?
DM: Nature or dungeoneering, or even Arcana with a -2 penalty might give you a better understanding of the tracks.
Player 4: Okay, I'd like to check the tracks with Arcana. I rolled a 19.
DM: With the -2 that is not enough to identify the tracks, but this is neither a success nor failure because it does not directly impact the goal of getting to the coast. Player 5, what about you?
Player 5: I'd like to identify the tracks. I do have Dungeoneering.
DM: Very well make your roll.
Player 5: Ha, hah. Nat 20. That's a 27.
DM: Okay, you identify the tracks as those of a Rage Drake. You also know that it seems like it was heavily burdened. However, the tracks are old, maybe more than a week. There are no other tracks here so you think your quarry did not follow this path. Okay, player 6 what would you like to do?
Player 6: I'd like to use Insight to determine which path our quarry might have most likely have followed.
DM: Okay, that task will be difficult, but it is an inventive way of determining that. Go ahead and roll Insight. If you are able to give me one or two facts that you remember about the quarry you might get a bonus.
Player 6: I rolled a 17. I remember that he mentioned having family in Karbundum. He was also of Olinian descent and he was very knowledgeable of this jungle as he got us here without a hitch.
DM: Okay, that counts as a success. With that roll and your information you are able to determine that....

So you see the Skill Challenge actually work best when you let the players be a big part of the free-form. Sometimes you are just going to have to "force" them to describe what they want to do instead of just letting them roll.

 

[LostSoul]

The biggest trick to skill challenges is, I think, dealing with the fact that the DM doesn't roll any dice. Generally, when the DM doesn't roll anything, the PCs don't get attacked, don't take damage, and nothing bad happens to them. What you have to do is put all the pressure on the PCs in your description of what's going on. Give them a reason to make the roll.

This means that you need an opposing force on the other side. In your example, you have the refugees and the wilderness itself. Maybe things like:

-monsters start prowing the refugees, and will attack them unless the PCs do something
-the wilderness crowds in on the PCs, making them get lost in its thick underbrush
-an angry treant, guardian of the wood, pushes the PCs back and away from their source of materials
-the materials themselves snap back in anger, threatening to pin a PC underneath the obstacle
-a couple of the refugee leaders push ahead of the pack and spot the PCs doing the work, angering them

Here's how I look at it:

• Someone makes what I call the "inciting action". In this case, it could be the DM having the refugees moving off, or the PCs setting up the obstacle.
• In response to that, the other side has to make an action. Maybe it's the PCs scouting for a place to block the refugees, or it's the refugees getting prowled by some worgs.
• You roll the dice, and the situation changes.
  • The PCs find a narrow pass
  • They lead the worgs away
  • They can't find a spot for a good obstacle
  • The refugees are attacked by worgs.
• The change in the situation leads into another "inciting action", and you repeat the cycle until enough successes or failures are met.
  • The refugees are coming around the pass and are going to walk through it before the PCs can set up their obstacle
  • The refugees start running in panic, and the PCs are going to have to get out in front of them
  • The refugees are getting closer to their goal, and there is no good spot for an obstacle
  • The worgs rip into the refugees, killing them and eating them.

 

[Jack99]

Good call, Lord_Q. It's funny, but that's how I typically prompt my players. Odd that I didn't think of doing so in the skill challenge. I'll definitely let them lead the challenge scenarios going forward. That will help engage them and make them feel like rolling isn't the only thing happening.

Cheers!

I just wanted to add, that under the right cirucumstances, the other way, the way you described first, where the DM does all the talking and the players only roll, can indeed work as well.

Last night, we were rounding up my version of KotS. Kalarel was dead, but the portal still open, bursting with arcane energy. The players wanted to try to close it. I allowed them, using some of Kalarel's old notes, to go in and work the ritual from the inside, manipulating the magical energy (arcana and religion) while trying to contain the ritual, as it was sorta running wild from being interrupted (Endurance). It was all rolling from their side, with me narrating what happen, and they failed - but they still thought it was a great "happening".

YMMV ofc

Cheers

 

[Soel]

I have similar issue with skill challenges as did Rafe, but I think the advice in this thread will help me.

One other issue, though, if I can get some perspectives...I'm kinda afraid that, when using a skill challenge to resolve a certain scenario, that I might lock myself into doing so with all similar scenarios, including ones that simply don't have as much impact on the game, or otherwise feel exactly the same as the last time the players tried the same things. Is this a legit fear, or will player's eventual participation negate this issue?

 

[LostSoul]

One other issue, though, if I can get some perspectives...I'm kinda afraid that, when using a skill challenge to resolve a certain scenario, that I might lock myself into doing so with all similar scenarios, including ones that simply don't have as much impact on the game, or otherwise feel exactly the same as the last time the players tried the same things. Is this a legit fear, or will player's eventual participation negate this issue?

If you allow the situation to change in response to the PC's and NPC's actions, it shouldn't be a problem.

(The sort of change I'm talking about is when you go in to Negotiate with the Duke and end up in an Urban Chase.)

 

[Rafe]

I have similar issue with skill challenges as did Rafe, but I think the advice in this thread will help me.

Indeed! Lots of great advice here and it's been much appreciated!

One other issue, though, if I can get some perspectives...I'm kinda afraid that, when using a skill challenge to resolve a certain scenario, that I might lock myself into doing so with all similar scenarios, including ones that simply don't have as much impact on the game, or otherwise feel exactly the same as the last time the players tried the same things. Is this a legit fear, or will player's eventual participation negate this issue?

A quick rule-of-thumb is to use a skill challenge in place of a combat encounter, or as the social/skill equivalent to one. So ask yourself: Is this situation as important as a combat encounter? What are the penalties for failure and the rewards for succeeding? If there are tangible rewards and penalties, it may be skill challenge worthy. I wouldn't use more than 2 skill challenges per session and, if you do, make sure they're different. Use an environmental challenge (scaling a mountain or finding a way through the hinterlands) if you've already used a social challenge (negotiation or interrogation).

If a situation can be resolved with a single roll, it's not a skill challenge. Check out the sidebox on p. 72 of the DMG: Is This a Challenge? If you use skill challenges too frequently, it will just start to seem like more rolling. You can also switch it up a bit and not use dice. Go with straight roleplaying once in a while and afterwards reward xp. The players won't know it's a challenge til you reward them or describe the failure's effects.

Ooops... I just re-read your issue: re-using the same challenge for similar circumstances. Well, change the circumstances somewhat. Instead of negotiating with a lord, they have to convince a court of lords to whom the king listens. Convince them and you've convinced the high lord or king. Or perhaps the audience itself wouldn't be an issue if you could only get past the chancellor... so use a skill challenge on the chancellor and not the lord; the lord trusts the chancellor and will give a good listening to anyone the chancellor admits. Or, again... just roleplay it. If your group isn't roleplaying-heavy or interested, then don't be afraid to repeat skill challenges.

Just be imaginative and change a few things. Perhaps allow different skills. Maybe the lord was once a ranger. A history check now opens up nature checks which the lord is very receptive to. Etc.

Hope that helps.

 

[Soel]

Big thanx, alll!

I think I'll only get really comfortable with skill challenges by taking the plunge. Wish me luck!