Infiniti2000
First Post
I've read all the articles and advice and, as evidenced here, there are still questions. And I still suck at them.
In general, when the players want to do something and there is some doubt whether or not they will succeed. The same approach applies to skill challenges. Sometimes, the players can come up with an idea that, in the DM's judgement, will certainly succeed or certainly fail and there is no need for a check (at least, from the perspective of that DM). However, most times, there will be varying chances for success and failure and the DM should call for a check.
The DM, with inputs from the players. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, but the players may be able to think of an approach that could plausibly work (again, in the DM's judgement) that the DM had not thought of previously, and the DM should then decide on the appropriate skill to use.
As with the skills used, the DM should have a general sense of what a successful check or a failed check means, both in terms of the individual check, and in the broader context of the skill challenge. This includes issues such as whether a successful check results in a single success for the purposes of the skill challenge, no successes but grants some other advantage, or results in two or more successes, and conversely, whether a failed check results in a single failure for the purposes of the skill challenge, no failures but imposes some other penalty, etc. In cases where the players come up an approach that the DM has not considered, he will have to make the decision on the spot. As for how, it all comes back to DM judgement again.
You guessed it - DM judgement.
DM judg- oh, wait. Here there are two basic approaches. If the DM has already established the in-game difficulty of a task (for example, by looking up the tables of common skill DCs in the PH) he can use that to set the level of the skill challenge. Alternatively, the DM can select the level of challenge and change the DCs to make them fit with the suggested DCs for a challenge of that level. If this makes the DCs different from the suggested DCs in the PH, the DM should also come up with a plausible in-game reason for why the task is easier or harder than normal on this specific occasion.
Indeed.I think for the majority of DMs the concept that SCs should be dynamic and presented in the same fashion as any other sort of RP situation (in general) still hasn't been emphasized enough.
...I feel that not enough attention has been paid to presenting alternate failure conditions apart from the "three failures" model. IMO, the "three failures" model is one of the key factors that discourages players from participating in skill challenges since a failed skill check often results in an actual setback rather than simply a lack of progress.
It's true that there isn't a very mechanical system for running skill challenges, unlike the combat system and the system for making specific simple skill checks, e.g. opening a lock, jumping across a chasm, etc. I think it is because non-combat challenges are by their very nature more open-ended and possibly more complex as well. Even a specific example of a skill challenge is just that: a specific example. A DM who wants to make use of it will usually have change it to suit the specifics of their adventure, or alter the specifics of their adventure to suit the challenge.Half of my post was to say that, hey look, there isn't any system for making skill checks in 4E.
Sure.Anyway, let's look deeper... and ask a lot of stupid questions to reveal things that are implicit to us old hands but can confuse people.
Presumably, the player said that because he wanted the guard to go away. In this case, success means that the guard leaves.Question: How does success tie into the action? Let's say I state my action: "I tell the guard to get lost." What is "success" in this case?
What I would do is to add an automatic success or failure, possibly more than one successes or failures if it was a particularly good or bad action. If the DM thinks that it is not reasonable for the skill challenge to remain unresolved after the action, then he should declare that the skill challenge is resolved. (Such occurances should be uncommon, of course, and usually mean that the players did something that the DM did not expect.)Question the Second: What happens in a skill challenge if the success of the declared action is not in doubt? Does it add into success or failures? What if the declared action resolves the skill challenge?
Ideally, before the DM presents the players with a challenge, he should have at least one solution (and preferably more) in mind. The skills that are useful ought to flow naturally from the solution that he has in mind.Question: How does the DM decide what skills would be useful?
There are a few ways to handle this. The player may describe his action and state which skill he is using, the player may describe his action and the DM decides which skill the player is using based on that description and calls for that skill check. (On a personal note, I prefer the former approach.) Occasionally, the player may propose a course of action that the DM had not originally thought about. If the DM decides that the approach is viable, he may allow the player to use make a skill check to earn a success or gain some other benefit.Question: How does this tie into the player's declared action? Does the player's declared action affect the DM's decision in any way? If so, how?
This is actually a very broad question and goes to the core of what it means to be a DM since one of the most basic responsibilities of being a DM is to answer the question, "What happens next?" Usually, the answer would be the most logical thing to happen, but occasionally, the DM might say that the most interesting (not necessarily logical, but ideally still plausible) thing happens instead.Question: How does the DM decide? Why would he make one decision over another?
For simple skill checks, a successful check usually means that the player's stated action is carried out successfully. In skill challenges, each successful check should convey a sense of progress, until the final successful check which overcomes the challenge.Question: How does the player's stated action tie into this? Is the action resolved or not? If I declare an action that's in doubt, I make a successful check, do I carry out my action or not?
The DM should decide whether the proposed action will contribute to the skill challenge or not. As successful skill check that does not help advance the skill challenge should not earn any successes for the purpose of the skill challenge.Question: How does the outcome of the declared action interact with the skill challenge's successes and failures? If I declare an action that requires a skill check - "I stab the Duke through the heart" - and succeed, does that count as a success in the skill challenge?
Ideally, it should be based on the situation in the game world. The DM may deem certain approaches to be more effective than others and use skill check modifiers to reward players who take those approaches. Ideally, the DM should allow the players the opportunity to discover these in the course of the game. For example, the DM may decide that the Duke is particularly susceptible to flattery, and that players who specifically mention that they flatter the Duke gain a bonus to Diplomacy checks. The players may discover this if they have won the confidence of the Duke's chief advisor, with a successful Streetwise check to learn rumors about the Duke, or with a successful Insight check after meeting the Duke in person.Question: Why would the DM decide to apply a modifier to a skill check? What is the basis for his decision? Is it based on the situation in the game world, the enjoyment of the players, the difficulty he wants to impose on the players, the needs for the DM to see his pre-written story play out in the way he wants, because he likes Tom better than Jim, or what?
There is essentially no difference between them. It is simply a way of saying that a Modereately difficult skill check for a 1st-level character should be Easy for a 7th-level character. As for choosing an Easy DC over a Hard one, the DM should assess how likely the character's action is to succeed, or in the context of a skill challenge, how likely it is for the character's action to contribute to overcoming the skill challenge. If you think of the likelihood as a continuum from certain to succeed - likely to succeed - may succeed - unlikely to succeed - certain to fail, this translates into automatic success - Easy DC - Moderate DC - Hard DC - automatic failure.Question: What would a DM pick an Easy DC over a Hard one? What is the difference between a Level 7 Easy DC and a Level 1 Moderate one?
How does he decide what level monsters to use? Same thing.Question: How does a DM decide what the level of the challenge should be?
As mentioned earlier, given the open-ended and complex nature of non-combat challenges, I am not sure that it is possible to provide simple rules for creating good skill challenges. Perhaps, when it comes to skill challenges, only the bare bones structure can be provided, in much the same way that when it comes to creating new monsters, only the basic statistics (defenses, damage, etc.) are given. Adding flavor, twists and interactivity to skill challenges may be something that has to be left to the individual DM.Putting it all together now...
1. The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check.
2. The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action.
3. The DM determines what the result of the check means.
4. The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll.
5. The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge.
I would say that this isn't enough information to play the game. We have the skeleton of a system here but people are going to have to dress it up in their own way. Which can be a feature, but since people are having problems...
It also needs to be tied into the skill challenge mechanics. There are some other questions there: why would you decide to run a skill challenge, why would you set the complexity to one level and not another, what happens when the skill challenge is (or is not) resolved, and how actions, skill checks, and the results of checks interact with the successes and failures needed in the skill challenge.
I don't believe these questions are ever answered in a procedural, "This is how you do it" way. I could be wrong, though.
Indeed.
I think skill challenges work like a charm unless the players realize they're in a skill challenge. As a DM I never announce one. The challenge is presented like any other description of the current situation and ends with the question "What do you do?"
The players simply state what their pcs do and I may ask for the occasional skill check. I'm tracking success/failure for relevant skill checks as they're being made and allow for auto-success/auto-failure when particularly (in)appropriate actions are taken by the pcs.
The problem is: This style of DMing skill challenges isn't well suited to be used in published material such as adventure modules. There isn't enough of a structure to allow a DM to run it smoothly unless the DM is already comfortable with running such 'free-style' skill challenges.
[Snip]
But again, I believe the main problem that still remains is that players should never realize they're in a skill challenge, otherwise they'll start to meta-game and act 'unnaturally' trying to always use their best skills or not participate at all for fear of failing.