Skill checks - cooperation?

[BFrost]

I don't know if it's just me, or it's too easy even for an untrained character to help in skill checks. The DC is flat 10, so even at first level any character has good chance to succeed, and when he goes up a few levels, that +2 per additional character in the party will be almost automatic.
In combat, aid another at least have a decent price - you waste your standard action. But assisting in skill checks just seems too easy to me.

I'd appreciate any thoughts/suggestions.

 

[Runestar]

Yep, it seems like skill challenges weren't all that well-designed to begin with. There is little reason why the other 4 PCs should not use aid-another to add a virtual +8 to the skill check of the PC with the highest skill rating, unless the task at hand somehow makes it impossible to aid.

Or maybe those dcs are what they are because of this built-in assumption.

 

[BFrost]

I hope they aren't
Maybe the best fix would be to take the primary check DC instead of 10 and give the aid-another check a bonus like +5...

 

[loisel]

There's a rather lengthy and detailed thread about this, either here or on the WotC boards (sorry, I don't know where). Basically, the way the skill challenges are designed, they are either trivial or impossible. If you assume a flat probability of success P for each trial, and if consider the typical challenge "Win 5 before you lose 4" or some other nonsense, you see that the overall probability of victory is usually nearly 1 (if everybody helps) or nearly 0 (if people don't help.) There was some sort of proposal that limits help another, but allows for some rerolls, which brought the probability of victory nearer to 50%.

 

[BFrost]

Actually, I specifically meant simple skill checks, not skill challenges.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I don't know if it's just me, or it's too easy even for an untrained character to help in skill checks. The DC is flat 10, so even at first level any character has good chance to succeed, and when he goes up a few levels, that +2 per additional character in the party will be almost automatic.
In combat, aid another at least have a decent price - you waste your standard action. But assisting in skill checks just seems too easy to me.

I'd appreciate any thoughts/suggestions.

Yes, but by using the aid another action you deliberatly step out of the limelight yet still remain active. I think it's a good option. Sad if it breaks the system though.

 

[Jhaelen]

I don't know if it's just me, or it's too easy even for an untrained character to help in skill checks. The DC is flat 10, so even at first level any character has good chance to succeed, and when he goes up a few levels, that +2 per additional character in the party will be almost automatic.
In combat, aid another at least have a decent price - you waste your standard action. But assisting in skill checks just seems too easy to me.

Well, if they aren't in danger and they've got all the time in the world, then it _should_ be easy. In 3E they'd have taken 10 or even 20. I.e. what situations and what kind of skill checks are you thinking about?

 

[Aservan]

It is not quite as simple as having every one help. Especially at low levels not every one can make even the 10 reliably. Lots of people will have skill penalties due to their 8 stat. In many cases you have to be adjacent to the guy you want to help. Thievery is infamous for this. That means only so many people can help you as they might need to be next to both you and the object you want to use a skill on.

Obviously diplomacy and the like become easier though. This is not as bad as it may sound. Peer pressure is pretty useful in real life after all. Five powerful dudes/chixors telling you that you should "KICK some AZZZZ!" can be pretty potent inducement for a lot of folks.

My biggest objection to the skill system is the fuzzy math approach they took to skill challenges. If you use the recommended DCs you basically ensure PC failure. In the published adventures you should always smash the traps rather then disarm them because the risk/reward is so much better. That's stupid in my book. I mean if you aren't a halfling rogue with a 20 Dex, and skill focus (thievery) don't even try the traps in Keep on the Shadowfell.