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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 5953948" data-attributes="member: 11300">Excellent questions and analysis, I tried to XP you both but only partially succeeded.Looking at Hypersmurf's questions, I would propose the following to provide the granularity and differentiation between the performers I prefer:* There are two levels of training: Standard and Expert. Standard gets you that +3 bonus while Advanced gets you a +6. All performers utilize a suitable ability (adding that ability's modifier).* There are three types of tasks based on DC: Basic Tasks, Standard Tasks and Advanced Tasks.Basic TasksAnyone can attempt basic tasks. Those trained (standard or expert) automatically succeed at basic tasks.Standard TasksAnyone can attempt standard tasks. Those expertly trained automatically succeed at standard tasks.Advanced TasksOnly those trained can attempt advanced tasks without automatically failing.Now lets look at Angus, Bob, Chris, and Don (Dex 14;Advanced Training +6):* Basic TasksA: +4B: AutoC: AutoD: Auto* Standard TasksA: +4B: +7C: +3D: Auto* Advanced TasksA: FailB: +7C: +3D: +8By doing this, we re-introduce the earlier auto-success concept but separate it from the actual ability score to DC comparison that previously did not quite work. In this way, we give a good nod of the head to training and experience while still allowing the naturally gifted to easily succeed. Training then simply picks up the slack of the old +10 or +20 rules.However, Advanced Tasks are too difficult for the high natural ability novice. These tasks require a certain amount of know-how. The highly intelligent fighter has loads of potential, but they are never going to just happen to know and be able to perform Mordenkainen's Seven Arcane Principles and Preparations for the Ordered Mind. This is certainly a task left to those with appropriate training.I could also see a further training category of Mastery. The Master does not necessarily get more bonuses (you want to keep the overall flatness of the system) but they should get advantage when performing Advanced Tasks.This pretty much gets the numbers right to my eye while giving adequate weight to training. In doing this it most probably separates the ability scores to a more raw concept but hopefully not too much. A side benefit is that this hopefully reduces the necessity for maxed out ability scores with training now picking up most of the slack (I'm not a fan of the "I must have 18 in my primary stat" view and the effects it has on character expectations).Thoughts?Best RegardsHerremann the Wise</blockquote>

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