Skills That Should be Handy for an Adventurer...But Aren't in Actual Play.

[Kelleris]

Sorry I didn't come back to this thread sooner--Real Life interrupted.

Anyway, I think you are missing the point. While it's true that only one party member *needs* to have the Comprehend Languages spell to render this skill redundant, not all players think first of optimization on the character or party level while creating or levelling their character. Some players actually like to consider the role playing aspects of their character first and foremost.

A player like that might sink many points into Decipher Script because it fits his/her character concept. That player might then reasonably expect the DM to sprinkle the campaign with opportunities for their character to use the skill. I play with people like that. I run games for people like that. And I am a person like that.

In Ghostwind's recently ended campaign, there was a PC who was a scholar. He had absolutely no physical combat ability, but he was extremely useful to the party because of his ranks in various "useless" skills. Ghostwind, as any good DM should, gave Brian opportunities to use his character in the way he wanted to.

I have a player who consistently creates characters that focus on knowledge, appraise, decipher and other similar skills. That's what he considers a fun character. He's an excellent roleplayer. Why would I not accomodate him? And in fact, I've found that having to prepare for a game with a PC that is focused on the so called "useless" skills really pushes me as a DM to create an interesting story. When Mike's character takes a book off a shelf, and finds that it is written in an obscure dialect of ancient Valossan, he keeps the book and takes it back to the inn to study. He wants to know what the book says. In response then, I have to create some ancient Valossan mythology or history or prophecy.

I wouldn't trade this player for one who prefers low intelligence bruiser characters. I consider his fondness for "useless" skills to be a huge bonus that helps me create a richer campaign world. And that creates more fun for everyone at the table.

This is all true, but to me it doesn't mitigate the fact that the *best* course of action is not to require players to make these kinds of choices. Why not de-useless-ify these crappy, crappy skills so people don't have to choose between having the character they want and having one that can contribute fairly to the party? Now, I think we agree that a large part of this is the DM's responsibility to run the kind of game the players want (within reason, of course), but why not also take the buff bat to some of these sub-par options and, well, get them up to par?

 

[Nyeshet]

I think the main problem is that there is such easy availability of spells such as fly, spiderclimb, levitate, water breathing, etc. that make many skills virtually superfluous. In my next campaign, I'm planning to either remove many of these spells or make them much higher level in order to increase the need for skills.

I've considered using the following:

Spells per Day*[u]
LV  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9[/u]
01  0^ -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
02  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
03  1  0^ -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
04  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[u]
05  2  1  0^ -  -  -  -  -  -  -[/u]
06  2  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
07  3  2  1  0^ -  -  -  -  -  -
08  3  2  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -
09  3  3  2  1  0^ -  -  -  -  -[u]
10  3  3  2  2  1  -  -  -  -  -[/u]
11  4  3  3  2  1  0^ -  -  -  -
12  4  3  3  2  2  1  -  -  -  -
13  4  4  3  3  2  1  0^ -  -  -
14  4  4  3  3  2  2  1  -  -  -[u]
15  4  4  4  3  3  2  1  0^ -  -[/u]
16  5  4  4  3  3  2  2  1  -  -
17  5  4  4  4  3  3  2  1  0^ -
18  5  5  4  4  3  3  2  2  1  - 
19  5  5  4  4  4  3  3  2  1  0^[u]
20  5  5  5  4  4  3  3  2  2  1[/u]
* Not including bonus spells from a high ability score.
^ Can cast at this level only if ability score permits.

In addition to this, some spells would be bumped up a level (raise dead & co., prot. from <alignment> & co., ability spells (bull's str & co.), teleportation spells, and a few others. Due to raised level and delayed casting the spells would be used less often - and items of such (permanent, potions, scrolls, etc) would be higher cost and so less often found / used.

On the other hand, this weakens casters notably. To balance this I'm considering granting Clerics, Druids, and Wizards a Lore ability (focused mostly in their appropriate knowledge) and perhaps a couple bonus skill ranks per level. Sorcerers, I was considering granting the wizards' feats (ie: one every five (or six?) levels only for use in metamagic or item creation).

It is still on the drawing board, needless to say.

 

[Feldspar]

Wasn't addressed to me, but since Decipher Script was the one skill I voted for, here's my two bits.

Anyway, I think you are missing the point. While it's true that only one party member *needs* to have the Comprehend Languages spell to render this skill redundant, not all players think first of optimization on the character or party level while creating or levelling their character. Some players actually like to consider the role playing aspects of their character first and foremost.

I've created characters like that and completely understand building a character that way. For example, the gambler duelist I created with max ranks (we were starting at 10th level) in Sense Motive, Bluff, and Sleight of Hand as skills he would have developed with that background. I did this knowing that I might not get to use those skills (and I didn't). He turned out to be the only one in the party with any aptitude towards sneaking and getting locked things open "quiet like" and so quickly started getting better at those skills (the hard way).

A player like that might sink many points into Decipher Script because it fits his/her character concept. ... In Ghostwind's recently ended campaign, there was a PC who was a scholar. He had absolutely no physical combat ability, but he was extremely useful to the party because of his ranks in various "useless" skills.

I can totally appreciate wanting to play a scholarly character; I just wish there was a half decent way in 3.5. I'd love to have a character with the Bardic Knowledge ability - its just that the whole Bard performance thing gets in the way. I just don't *get* Bards; which is why I love Elan in OotS so much.

But here's the problem with Decipher Script; party comes across some runes carved in the stones of an ancient abandoned temple:
Player 1: Ahh, I have ranks in Decipher Script, I'll try to figure out what it says. Okay, hmmm, ancient language, thats a DC of 30 ... a robust challenge! *rolls and fails* Dang! Sorry, guys, I can't translate it.
Player 2: No problem, I'll just take an etching on some parchment and cast Comprehend Langauges on it tomorrow.

At that point you will hear the sound of Player 1 slowly deflating because he wasted points in a skill which (mechanically) is complete crap. Worst. Skill. Ever.

Sure it might make sense for a player to point points into that skill because it works in their concept, my point is that the player is probably going to have more fun if they put those skill points into some other skill that still works within their greater concept like another Knowledge Skill or, even better, Speak Language. Depending on your class skill list, for every rank or 2 ranks of Decipher Script you can learn to flat out speak/read/write a new language without error.

Skill points are precious. And I do like them to bolster the character concept/history. But Decipher Script? That dog won't hunt and I have no time for it.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Depending on your class skill list, for every rank or 2 ranks of Decipher Script you can learn to flat out speak/read/write a new language without error.

See I voted for Decipher Script, but I had to come to its defense a little. It does have one role that nothing else offers, and that is deciphering incomplete messages. I have also seen it used to interpret coded messages.

It's just that such situations are utterly rare and circumstantial to a DM's campaign that I voted for it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Disguise - This seems like it should be cool, but how often do you interact with things you could plausibly disguise yourself as? Superceded by relatively low level spells.

Easily augmented by low-level spells and cheap items is the term I'd use. One of my Living Greyhawk characters had a hat of disguise for five levels (so far--I have another who just bought one) and it has come in quite useful on a couple occasions. On both of those occasions, the disguise skill would also have been quite useful and if I'd planned to keep my ruse up for longer than the time it took to approach the enemies and get in a surprise round, I would really have wanted to have the skill as well.

The challenge with disguise is that it is more likely to be an adventure creator than a skill useful in just one encounter so if you don't have it, you either get a DM fiat magical disguise (usually far better than the low-level spells) so that you can do that kind of adventure or you simply don't play that kind of adventure. A creative player, however, can make it useful even in non-disguise adventures.

Escape Artist - It seems like it should be great, but in actuality, mainly used by Small characters with lots of skill points to avoid grapples. Basically, PCs just don't get tied up very often.

Ditto on this one. The challenge of the other uses of escape artist is that only one PC (if any) is likely to have it and using it in adventure settings (to slip through the grate and explore the blocked portion of the sewers, for instance) will usually involve splitting the party. That either divides the game time or presents an unnaceptable risk (or even both) and therefore isn't generally done. It would be a lot more useful in a solo game.

Speak Language - Should be awesome, but since there is no guarantee of any particular character speaking a specific language, adventures rarely feature speaking a language as a necessary or even useful trait. At higher levels, various spells supercede this (often expensive) skill. Even wizards tend to get by on their bonus languages.

This one depends very heavily upon the setting. Some DMs don't want to bother with languages and just assume that everyone speaks English/Common. Other DMs will make the characters get an interpreter who may or may not be trustworthy, etc.

I disagree that the spells supercede the skill though. Tongues presents a pretty high opportunity cost and a lot of characters don't want to prep it. Also, casting a spell to speak with strange monsters can often be interpreted as a hostile act and may well serve to start hostilities rather than end them--especially if the NPCs do not have enough spellcraft to recognize the spell. ("He could be casting tongues, or he could be casting Evard's Black Tentacles--I'm not waiting to find out which; let's get him!")

 

[Deng]

I’m surprised that no-one has mentioned that Forgery is actually an apposed roll on the Forgery skill. So even if the PCs aren’t forging documents themselves the skill is useful to spot a forgery.

Buying a document from a shady guy in the inn? At least a PC with a high forgery skill could see if the document is legitimate and worth the money.

 

[Vanye]

The wizard polymorphs the fighter into a sahuagin and then casts dimension door to skip the flooded area entirely.

Why waste so much ancililiary magic? The wizard can take along all his buddies with the spell, rather than pmorph the fighter and having the cleric cast another spell...

 

[Victim]

I’m surprised that no-one has mentioned that Forgery is actually an apposed roll on the Forgery skill. So even if the PCs aren’t forging documents themselves the skill is useful to spot a forgery.

Buying a document from a shady guy in the inn? At least a PC with a high forgery skill could see if the document is legitimate and worth the money.

That and since Forgery is trained only, even a crappy bonus will often be sufficient since not many other people will have Forgery. It doesn't matter how bad the check result is on your false papers if the guards looking at them don't have Forgery.

My group considers Sense Motive pretty useless, since there will often be no difference in apparent results on failure or success. And people who like to Bluff can usually blow away a defender's Sense Motive without much trouble.

 

[sniffles]

I'd have to say the one skill that stands out for me as useful for an adventurer but not in actual play is Use Magic Device. It's so restricted and the DCs for UMD are so high.

There are plenty of other skills that seem useful but aren't in play because they're seldom called on, though. I don't remember the last time anyone was asked to make an Appraise or Disguise check. Or Balance or Climb, either. But I don't think that's a fault of the game design. My GMs just need to design adventures with a bigger variety of challenges for the PCs to overcome.

 

[ExiledRogue]

When I was in high school, I played for a couple of years with a DM who was really into intrigue and politics. Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Disguise were quite useful in his campaigns. Since then, I've played mostly in combat-oriented campaigns, and. like most of the previous posters in this thread, I've pretty much never used them.

I suppose its much more difficult to create and run campaigns based around non-combat themes (since the DM has to match wits with 4-5 people, instead of simply laying out a bunch of orcs), so the skills intended for that type of play never get used.