Skills that suck.

Terraism

Explorer
Was that a catchy enough title to get people in here? Hm... :)

I'm going to be starting a new game in a few months, and I'm taking the intervening time to look over rules that I've found troublesome in the past. One of the things I find most irksome is how skills are handled - and the distinct superiority some skills have over others. I'd like to address this, a bit, either by strengthening some skills or combining others. (Note - I'm working this from a rules perspective only. That means that my assumptions are all based on the core rules, including world-information. I'm aware that's not always the case - it won't be in my game, even - but I'd prefer to address things in that fashion.) That said, here's my list of Skills That Suck TM (err - just kidding. ;) )

Skills That Suck (aka Skills Nobody Takes)
- Decipher Script
- Disable Device
- Escape Artist
- Forgery
- Use Rope

Ok. Now for some explanations. I'll start from the top.
Decipher Script: I love this skill. I really do - it's neat. Unfortunately, it's nearly useless. The only folks who're going to have points to dump into this to meet a (low-end) DC 25 (!) check for basic documents are those with lots of skill points (often from a high intelligence.) With the way D&D languages work, it's often easier just to pick up a large number of languages. I mean, heck - there's only twenty languages, including Common, in the core rules. Assuming a character has a 16 Intelligence, he'll start with four of those (five if he's non-human.) With Speak Language, it's two points for each additional one, costing 32 (30) skill points total. Now, 30 points in Decipher Script would certainly allow someone to consistently read just about anything, I'll grant - but not speak it. That many points in Speak Language allows both speech and reading (and writing!). Personally, this seems like more of a problem with the D&D language system than the skill itself, but...

Disable Device - This is just a pet peeve; I'll admit it's actually a very useful skill... if you use traps. If you don't, there's not really anything much harder than DC 15 to do with it. I imagine I'll probably follow the example set by d20 Modern and combine it with Open Locks.

Escape Artist - Aside from the occassion when someone needs to slip out of bonds - which hasn't happened too often in my games (does it happen often enough that this skill is decently useful in other's?) - the only benefit to this skill is in grappling, but only after you're already grappled. Would it be unbalanced to allow an Escape Artist check instead of an opposed grapple check (when you're resisting) at the very outset?

Forgery - This skill really brings to mind the problem with a number of skills. They - like Forgery - really are useful skills. The problem is that, compared to things such as Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Listen, Spellcraft, Spot (the list goes on,) they're used so rarely that putting points into it is often a relative waste. (If you've got only enough points to boost Forgery or Spot, as an average, adventuring rogue, which are you likely to do?) That, then, begs the question - how to bring some skills up to the comparative value?

Use Rope - Do I really need to detail this? With one exception - where the character was a sailor - I've never seen anyone point ranks into this skill. In addition, hell - the DC's are a bit whacked. DC 10 to tie a firm knot. Your average individual, with no training and a Dexterity of 10, will fail at that half the time. Now, I've never had training with knots, and can't get the simplest one undone without a knife (slice!), but I can tie a firm knot. It's not pretty, I'll grant you, and I might loose a few feet of rope (and never, ever get it undone,) but it'll hold. It'll hold *lots.*

Appraise/Balance/Climb - These aren't listed above, because they're useful skills. But I do see them taken very rarely, and I'd like to increase their occurence a bit. Any ideas? (Also, Swim was on this list at one time, until a fellow with a 24 Strength, wearing full plate, fell into the water. He rolled a natural twenty on his swim check, and sank like a stone. My players are very, very afraid of drowning now.)
So - ideas? Is combining skills a horrible thing? Am I missing obvious benefits of some of these? Are there other Skills That Suck I'm missing? What d'you think?
 

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Decipher Script is pretty common in my games, but that's only because I use a different language system.

I have a rogue who has spent 2 feats and max skill points on Disable Device, in addition to tracking down an elderly guild-thief and buying his ultra-masterwork thieves' tools. As a result, I can't call this useless either -- he uses the skill several times each session.

Escape Artist strikes me as a decent skill, since characters would otherwise have no chance of escaping a grapple from a big monster -- but I haven't seen it taken very often, I must admit.

I don't like Forgery. It's just like Scry (though I liked Scry): too hard to justify spending skill points on, too easy to beat all DCs/opposed checks if you do put skill ranks into it.

Use Rope is a peasant skill, and I don't mind it being unpopular.

Swim is unpopular in my games (less common than many Professions, frankly).
 

Hm - so confirmation on many of my feelings, but not all. The rogue that regularly uses Disable Device - you say it comes up regularly? What do you use it for, other than traps? (If it's really just traps, obviously no biggie. But I'm always up for new uses for old skills, as it were. :))
 

Pretty much any skill has the potential to be useless. Part of the DM's job is to track where players are putting their skill points and put in opportunities for them to be employed.
 

Terraism said:
Hm - so confirmation on many of my feelings, but not all. The rogue that regularly uses Disable Device - you say it comes up regularly? What do you use it for, other than traps? (If it's really just traps, obviously no biggie. But I'm always up for new uses for old skills, as it were. :))

Actually, traps almost never come up... maybe one every three sessions.

His amazing skill (he's 21st level, I think, and very focused; perhaps +33?) allows him to do many things. A short, obviously incomplete list:
* He's taken doors off their hinges, even when the hinges aren't apparent. Actually this is done more often for looting (stealing valuable doors) than breaking & entering!
* An ancient device is spouting riddles and nonsense, and he figures out its internal workings and bypasses the mechanism.
* Traps: Rigging a trap to fail the first time its triggered, but then work normally...
* At the highest level of skill, he's disabled -- in combat, no less -- poorly-designed constructs. Afterward, he took them home & fixed them up. In my campaign this is a full-round action that provokes an AoO (unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike), with DCs around 50 for typical constructs.
 

CRGreathouse said:
Actually, traps almost never come up... maybe one every three sessions.

His amazing skill (he's 21st level, I think, and very focused; perhaps +33?) allows him to do many things. A short, obviously incomplete list:

21st level and just +33??

23 ranks
+3 Skill Focus
+10 Epic Skill Focus

That's +36 and without factoring in masterwork (+2) or magical (+?) tools, intelligence (+2 to +4 by that level)

Well, maybe if he didn't take Epic Skill focus as his first epic feat - still.
 
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Rope use can be handy, if the players and GM want to make it so.

Tying knots that are secure, but can also be undone with a swift tug (handy for retrieving a rope after a climb).

Whippings and lashings, general rope care: ropes that are cut, or simply not looked after will fray. Out in the wilderness, with no opportunities for easy resupply, regular rope maintainence can be very important.

Sheepshank: a handy knot for reducing a rope's length without cutting it.

Trucker's (Wagoneer's) Hitch: Allows a huge amount of pressure to be placed on a rope when tying things down. Enough of these hitches stacked one after the other on the same rope (three will usually be enough) allow for enough pressure to actually snap the rope.

Nooses: What adventurer wouldn't be proud of the ability to make a technically perfect hangmans noose?

Knots that can be undone easily even when wet. Knots that can be undone quickly. Makeshift harness for raising/lowering things. Putting together a raft, derrick, ladder or somesuch, without other forms of bindings, and that will actually be secure. Identifying knots that have been retied (eg, theive's knot).

General rope knowledge: Eg, coconut rope floats.

In a slightly more advanced setting, Rope Use could well include an understanding of pulleys and block and tackle.

Synergy bonus to to-hit rolls and damage when fighting Ropers (ok, I might be pushing it just a bit...).
 

I agree. DnD forces PCs to make silly choices concerning their skills.

I can only think of four options to deal with this:


#1 Hit points are stupid. So are skill points. Live with it.

#2 Increase the number of skill points given.

#3 Decrease and consolidate the number of skills.

#4 Have the DM rig situations where a rare skill is needed.
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I'll assume that #1 isn't an option.

The problem I have with number #2 is that most PCs will still dump all of their skill points in the "best" skills. Giving every class an additional 8 skill points per level means that all of the PCs would max out spot, listen, tumble, sense motive, concentration, etc...even if cross-classed.

I think #4 doesn't change the fact that PCs have to max out a few skills in order to hit those higher DCs. (Like spellcraft and concentration). It also seems contrived to alter the game world because the system is broken. This is also ignoring that skills like climb and wilderness lore become quickly obsolete due to magic.

I kinda like #3, but it makes PCs more capable, and it has the same drawbacks as #2. If we make move silently and hide one skill called "stealth", then rogues will max stealth and acrobatics (balance, tumble and climb) and ignore linguistics (all languages + decipher script).

Even more extreme is something of a "skill throw", a saving throw for skills. You could separate skills into three different categories: mental, physical and personal. Each class could have a different rating, just like a saving throw.

"Mental" would have a bonus based on intellegence. (wilderness lore, spot)
"Personal" would have a bonus based on charisma. (bluff, sense motive...)
"Physical" would have a bonus based on strength. (climb, swim...)

Maybe a wizard has good mental and bad physical and personal skill saves. A rogue would have all good skill saves.

barbarian, good physical
bard, good mental, personal
cleric, good personal
druid, good physical
fighter, good physical
monk, good physical
paladin, good personal
ranger, good physical
rogue, good physical, mental, personal
sorcerer, good mental, personal
wizard, good mental

good = 1 skill point every level
bad = 1 skill point every 2 levels


Anyway, I just came up with that on the fly. It may have a bunch of bugs. I'll patch it later... ;)
 

My old list of "skills that suck" has been reduced in 3.5e since they did away with intuit direction and read lips :)

I did improve Intuit Direction back in 3e though:

Intuit Direction
DC 15 retrace steps
DC 20 follow directions
DC 25 solve mundane maze
DC 30 solve maze spell
DC 35 locate direction
DC 40 locate person

I also thought that Balance was underused, so I introduced the following:

Balance
DC 25 ignore trip attack
DC 30 ignore bull rush attack

(although now I'd be tempted to allow a Balance check to be made in place of the opposed str/dex... except that it would be too high. I'm not entirely sure what to do there...)
 

I had considered dividing skills into categories and charging 1pt per rank for a Basic skill, 2pts for Advanced and 3pts for Expert Skills (Expert would include Bab and Defence skill) however I never quite got around to assigning skills to categories as it seemed like too much work!

The other thing I considered was combining escape artist and tumble into one skill (making tumble even stronger!), tying use rope into survival and making disable device a more general 'mechanics' skill (and adding in feats like Jury rig and DCs for picking locks and mending mechanical devices (like crossbows))

Swim is useful if the DM uses lots of water

The skills I personally hate however is Run - I just don't see the point and would rather see a Manouvere skill used to perform moves (ie change direction in a charge DC 15) & 'stunts' (up the walls 5ft DC 30) while running

other than that - um
 

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