Skills?

[IanArgent]

They should make AC increase 0.5/level too, otherwise it will be pretty much the only thing not increasing with your character level...
Or, if I could decide, make BAB a factor in AC (makes sense)...

Essentially, in Saga it does. Both what D&D considers AC and what D&D considers Reflex save are rolled up into a Reflex Defense.

D&D's answer to this has historically been to ramp up HP as Attack Bonus ramps up, rather than ramping AC as AB ramps.

 

[Psion]

Me too.

Also, it furthers adds to my confidence that a straight SWSE skill system is not the decree.

I would hope so.

Amidst all the nice things about SWSE, I loathed the skill system. I'm honestly baffled why anyone thinks the current 3.5 system is inadequate. I could see combining some skills, but the SWSE "chucking skill ranks" thing is just batty to me.

 

[IanArgent]

The rogue makes the balance checks, the mage and cleric use magic to either overcome or avoid the checks. The fighter either makes the checks, or climbs, or uses some kind of magic. Or perhaps this is that time that the rogue gets to save the fighter's butt. After all, everyone should shine some of the time.

But "non-functional" is just way off from how I have every found the current system to work. Way way off.

On the other hand, if the mage can make the balance checks of the rogue, then the rogue is getting screwed out of his role. You may as well let the rogue start tossing fireballs.

I have tried to run this type encounter at mid-levels; it doesn't work; at and quite low levels the disconnect becomes obvious. Try this at third level and tell me what the Wizard, fighter, and Cleric do when they have to make a DC 20 Balance check (a challenge for the maxed-out balance-monkey - he has to roll 10 on his balance check if he's maxed Dex or a 12 if he skimped on a 14).

Forget the cleric and wizard for a bit, you just handwaved the fighter completely (and I would like to point out that "being rescued by the fighter" != "being completely unable to participate in a fight because I can't make a balance check"). The fighter has neither innate ability to bypass balance checks, nor Balance on his skill list. Having to depend on a magic item shuts down all kinds of interesting "take-their-gear-away" adventures (another problem with mid-high D&D3.5 play, BTW). Or how about the poor sorcerer who didn't happen to choose the right spell for spells known?

I also can't think of any Cleric spells that help you increase a balance check while wearing heavy armor (that pesky max dex rating strikes again) - certainly not in the PHB at low to mid-level.
Nor anything short of flying that will let you bypass the need.

IMHO (and in this case it appears to be the decision of Game Design) no player should spend any significant period of time during the game standing around doing nothing effective. And there are several skills that aren't worth putting character resources into in the general case right now, because the lack of them will stymie a party.

I've yet to see any rogue in any campaign I've been in put any more ranks in Balance than necessary to get a synergy bonus; and I've had a hard time justifying putting ranks in Climb, given that by the time I've gotten anywhere, the casters can cast at least levitate. And when was the last time ANYONE not in a seafaring campaign put any ranks into swim at all?

Considered in a vacuum, the Saga skills system is only so-so. One of my favorite gaming systems is Shadowrun, a pure point-based skills system. But in that system, the points-based-skill system isnt' a bolt-on. And, for better or for worse, it is in D20.

And, quite frankly, unless a classes skill list numbers less than its available skills + 4, the 100% of characters looking the same is hyperbole. At least as long as all skill son a skill list are equal in use (which, to be fair, is not the case in D&D right now - saga appears to be a bit better with that).

We can all cherry-pick our examples of use-cases that prove our respective points till the Tarrasque comes home; but it's a religious issue in the end. I want all characters to have a chance, even if it's somewhat remote, to do something in a scenario that challenges the expert. Several people disagree.

I justify my stance by saying it's not fun for the players if they can't do anything; and therefore I have to design around NO-ONE having the relevant skills if it is to be an encounter for the whole party, or setting DCs low enough that unskilled users can pass. And if I want to run an adventure someone else wrote that assumes the entire party will be able to make their way down a crumbling staircase, under fire from goblin archers, after expending their entire magical resources in encounters earlier in the day?

 

[IanArgent]

I would hope so.

Amidst all the nice things about SWSE, I loathed the skill system. I'm honestly baffled why anyone thinks the current 3.5 system is inadequate. I could see combining some skills, but the SWSE "chucking skill ranks" thing is just batty to me.

I hated the SWSE skill system when I first saw it too. But I "grew up" playing Shadowrun, a pure skill-based system; with no real restrictions on what skills you can take and a system that doesn't have the huge ranges in power than D&D has.

I now look at the D&D skill system and wonder why I still have to deal with the antiquated 3.5 system for the next 9 months...

 

[AllisterH]

I hated the SWSE skill system when I first saw it too. But I "grew up" playing Shadowrun, a pure skill-based system; with no real restrictions on what skills you can take and a system that doesn't have the huge ranges in power than D&D has.

QFT.

The skill system has always been an "add-on" feature. You don't use it in normal adventures unless the DC is set really low (basically in the range of ability mods having an effect) since the designer really has no clue as to what capability a PC would have.

In other skill games, you know the range of possibility

 

[Psion]

QFT.

The skill system has always been an "add-on" feature. You don't use it in normal adventures unless the DC is set really low (basically in the range of ability mods having an effect) since the designer really has no clue as to what capability a PC would have.

I beg to differ. I most certainly DO use it in normal adventures.

As for published adventure, I am a believer in multiple paths to success. If a player doesn't have the maxed out level in all the skills doesn't mean they can't give you credit for varying levels of skills. I have seen this in published adventures before.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I beg to differ. I most certainly DO use it in normal adventures.

As for published adventure, I am a believer in multiple paths to success. If a player doesn't have the maxed out level in all the skills doesn't mean they can't give you credit for varying levels of skills. I have seen this in published adventures before.

Sure, but as previously stated in this thread, unless multiple people have the right skills, the only available alternative is usually, "Kick in the door, kill everything in sight."

That's fun for a while, but to be honest, I'm bored to death with it. Generally, the only way around it is a complicated plan whereby the skill-monkey and maybe the caster/druid (depending on what spells are available) get to do all kinds of sneaky/social/what-have-you stuff for half an hour while everyone else sits on their hands and waits because if they even got within 100 yards they'd ruin everything.

 

[Glyfair]

Generally, the only way around it is a complicated plan whereby the skill-monkey and maybe the caster/druid (depending on what spells are available) get to do all kinds of sneaky/social/what-have-you stuff for half an hour while everyone else sits on their hands and waits because if they even got within 100 yards they'd ruin everything.

I think hits one issue with the skill system as it is. When the game is completely social (roleplaying with little emphasis on skills) everyone can participate. When the game is combat oriented, everyone can participate (in most games, anyway). However, when other skills are important it's usually having everyone stand back while the character(s) with the appropriate set of skills does their thing. Not a problem if it's a simple roll, but potentially a problem when it's something extended (such as sneaking in the enemy camp to find something).

With extended skill encounters the players who don't have those skills don't usually have the option of participating at a lesser level. Having the plodding fighter trying to sneak into the camp with the sneaky characters is a disaster waiting to happen. Some characters are less effective at social encounters or combat encounters, but they get to participate.

Does the new system solve this problem? Maybe not completely. I have to believe that it reduces those situations, though.

 

[IanArgent]

I think hits one issue with the skill system as it is. When the game is completely social (roleplaying with little emphasis on skills) everyone can participate. When the game is combat oriented, everyone can participate (in most games, anyway). However, when other skills are important it's usually having everyone stand back while the character(s) with the appropriate set of skills does their thing. Not a problem if it's a simple roll, but potentially a problem when it's something extended (such as sneaking in the enemy camp to find something).

With extended skill encounters the players who don't have those skills don't usually have the option of participating at a lesser level. Having the plodding fighter trying to sneak into the camp with the sneaky characters is a disaster waiting to happen. Some characters are less effective at social encounters or combat encounters, but they get to participate.

Does the new system solve this problem? Maybe not completely. I have to believe that it reduces those situations, though.

In Shadowrun this works because there was no barrier to entry (and no excessive cost) to picking up the base set of "sneaking" skills. (Around my table, you got warned about bringing a character to the game without the ability to minimally participate in sneaking and socializing - by the other players. OTOH, SR has skill points as a core mechanic, and they aren't particularly rare or difficult to come by. Unless you're a rogue, you have very little skill points. And I don't care for the rogue as skillmonkey archetype that 3.x emphasises, either. Starting at 1st-level rogue for the skill points before going elsewhere is a problem, people)

 

[BryonD]

I have tried to run this type encounter at mid-levels; it doesn't work; at and quite low levels the disconnect becomes obvious.

To the contrary, I use it all the time over a wide range of levels and it works great.

Heck, this isn't even the issue that is being discussed for why a change needs to be made. Virtually no one is complaining about the in play function. The complaint has been effort required to build a PC/NPC.

But the bottom line is your claim is just completely outside of reality as I have experienced it. And if it were really the case as you describe it then it would not be possible for me to have the positive experiences that I have. Perhaps you are simply using the system incorrectly somehow.