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Skills?

Victim said:
I disagree. Sure, the difference in Base attack or save is smaller. But that's only part of the story. By the time you include different ability score selections, feats, magic items, etc, the difference grows significantly. A cleric only has +6 in base Will save over the rogue, but his emphasis on WIS can provide another 10 points of difference - and if he PrCs into a few classes with good Will, then the gap grows. Sure, a wizard is 10 Bab behind the fighter. But the 20th level fighter is probably pumping his attack bonus through STR, feats, different items that the wizard won't have, buffs that boost his melee will be applied by the group. He could be pushing +40 attack while the wizard is lucky to get +5 in misc mods for a total of +15.

Of course, the wizard likely has combat options that render his deficiency in melee bonus moot.
Right. In my current game the mage has a +6 attack bonus (+6 BAB, +1 weapon, -1 STR). The Barbarian has +25 when raging.
The worst save is a +5 (Shaman / Healer Reflex) and the best is +17 (Barbarian Fort, +20 during Rage) with a few +16s around.
L13 chars

And yes, the wizards lack of attack bonus is not a problem.
 

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BryonD said:
Are you really incapable of following the logic here?
No one is saying you are lying.
But I am saying you are wrong when you claim that because something happens to you it is
a fundamental truth of the game.


It is a false scenario to suggest that one key skill is always (or even often) the only way to avoid fights.

That is a true statement.

It can also be a true statement that no one in any game you have ever played in has thought of one. I completely accept this as truth as you claim it. But failure to come up with a solution does not remotely evidence that the other solutions do not exist. And the equally true fact that alternate solutions ARE reached on a regular basis in many other people's games is proof that the solutions do exist. Denying them is simply and flatly wrong.

An untrue statement is a what again ?

It IS a fundamental truth of MY game. In most sessions a combat that could have been avoided, information that could have been learned, time that could have been saved, Widget x from npc y to help with scenario z have all been lost due to lack of skills from characters that could not rightly under the current skill system have been expected to have them. The Saga system will at least ameliorate some of this. I'm all for failures happening but the current state is "let's not even bother trying to avoid the guard fight at the gate. The barbarian will burp rudely or insult someone if we try diplomacy or bluff, the cleric will clang if we try to sneak" etcetera. So my diplomatic, sneaky character is relegated to "let's be the bear" it gets old.
 

BryonD said:
To be clear, I'm not accusing anyone of "lying".


It is a little more than that. If you say "can not" and someone does it, then "can not" was incorrect.

If you say "can" and someone else doesn't, well "can" is still true as long as someone did it.

Can not is a much stronger statement than can.
I can't run a 5 min mile. (not even close). It would be very wrong for me to claim that a 5 minute mile can not be run.

You said my statement .. that it happens .. was untrue

What is an untrue statement again

I never said It happens to everyone, I never said it doesn't happen to other people. I said it happens and it sucks when it does and something should be done to make it happen less often especially for those of us it routinely happens to.

If your wizard doesn't want to ever climb a tree, if your barbarian never wants to be diplomatic, if your elven fighter wants to be afraid of the water those are all things you can choose to do or not do of your own volition by refusing to make a skill check and roleplaying it out or finding another way around.

Though why people think wizards need to be clumsy and frail is beyond me
 

Ok guys, let's stop arguing semantics and draw a line over all of your previous statements. One of you doesn't think it's a problem, one of you does, the end.

My take on the situation is that many opportunities to make interesting adventures at medium to high levels are lost due to skill checks. If at any point you want to make an interesting environmental hazard that makes balance or climb important, it typically splits the party in two. One of my favourite adventure styles in a murder-mystery type thing, and it always turns into one half of the party actually investigating and the other half waiting around for the next fight, which nobody enjoys. You can get away with it at low-levels because the skill differences are much smaller.

I can see the argument that the nimble rogue should be able to automatically pass hazard checks with low DCs that allow the rest of the party to just about make it. I find this leads to lack of investment in the skill because it just isn't fun to use, there's no challenge. Balance is one of the most neglected skills in the game because beyond a few ranks, the DM is unlikely to challenge you and you alone to a difficult check in it. Whilst I do enjoy a good rifle through the PHB to find a spell to get out of a certain situation, that typically results in XP or gold loss to get the required spell, which just isn't as exciting as physically overcoming the challenge.
 

Victim said:
I disagree. Sure, the difference in Base attack or save is smaller. But that's only part of the story. By the time you include different ability score selections, feats, magic items, etc, the difference grows significantly. A cleric only has +6 in base Will save over the rogue, but his emphasis on WIS can provide another 10 points of difference - and if he PrCs into a few classes with good Will, then the gap grows. Sure, a wizard is 10 Bab behind the fighter. But the 20th level fighter is probably pumping his attack bonus through STR, feats, different items that the wizard won't have, buffs that boost his melee will be applied by the group. He could be pushing +40 attack while the wizard is lucky to get +5 in misc mods for a total of +15.

Of course, the wizard likely has combat options that render his deficiency in melee bonus moot.
That's true. But many of these differences are also added on the current skill system, which means that saves and attack bonuses still have a lower potential to go "out of sync" then skills.
 

Chris_Nightwing said:
Balance is one of the most neglected skills in the game because beyond a few ranks, the DM is unlikely to challenge you and you alone to a difficult check in it.

Not that it has much to do with the debate at hand, but after one of the games I ran at GenCon a player told me, "I've never made that many Balance checks in any game I've ever played before." This prompted another player to say, "I haven't made that many Balance checks since I started playing 3.0!"

I didn't set out to make that a feature of the game but when you have big skyships maneuvering around each and occasionally ramming each other, there are going to be a lot of Balance checks.
 

I was in fact talking about "inherent" bonuses to BAB, saves, and skills. If you start talking about additions from magic, the delta gets worse. Magic weapons are limited by the rules to a +5 enhancement bonus. Skill bonuses start at +5 and amp up from there, and a +5 skill bonus costs about as much as a +1 attack bonus. Saves bonuses are likewise much smaller. Spell bonuses to skills obtainable at the same level outstrip bonuses to attacks and saves. There is a game design reason for this, and it's to keep up with the skillmonkey. But there's nothing stopping the skillmonkey from picking up a skill-boosting item to increase his dominance. Which means adventure design has to ramp DCs to keep up with the magic items and spells even faster than if you just look at the gains by character level. And adding skill points to everyone, or even just the non-rogues, doesn't help this. This can be fixed by jiggering the magic item rules and the spells, of course, but the magic item design for skills is set up because of the awesome variability of skills. Jump gives you a +10 bonus to jump checks, whereas magic weapon, a spell of the same level, only gives a +1 bonus. And the Jump spell ramps at 9th level to +30! These are all consequences of the skill system as it stands, with the huge variability of skill levels.

One of the complaints I saw (and I don't remember whether it was here or the WotC forums) is that SWSE skills sytem means we get superheroes, not heroes. We already have that problem, it's just that nobody notices because skills are often trivialized (you can run a campaign with skill importance, but the general cases in game desgn trivialize certain skills). And skills are trivialized because it's too hard to design for all cases when writing up a mass-market edventure; there has to be either a "path to success" for every possibility of skill sets from the maximum-single-skillmonkey in each skill to the possibility that the party might not have anyone with a single maxed skill, or even anyone with a particular skill at all. That means, among other things, there has to be an escape hatch that doesn't depend on game-mechanical skills (as opposed to pure roleplay) at all either "kill-them-all" or a macguffin from a previous encounter than allows the party to depress the DC of the skill check(s) low enough that an unskilled party can pass it. And if that skill-depresser macguffin is there, then the party with the skillset to pass the test beforehand can take advantage of it and not have to worry about the test at all.

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. I'm an adventure designer, writing up a module to be published to the wide world. At a certain point, I have a primary encounter that the entire party needs to be at (a "boss fight", say). And I want to set up a set of barrier encounters to make the party work a bit to get to the boss fight. Say the "boss" is in a castle holding a party, and the PCs have to figure out how to get into the castle to disrupt the party and kill and/or destroy the influence of the host. I want to set up one of those "multiple path to victory" scenarios. The party is (nominally) 10th level, and this is calibrated to be a challenge worth XP for the party. Some of the paths to victory can require use of spells, but if the party doesn't want to use or hasn't got the spells prepped, there has to be non-magic-based challenges. What skill sets do I require, and what DCs do I set those challenges at? For the purposes of this example, I don't want a "kill them all" escape hatch. I have to pick skillsets that most parties will have, and I have to challenge both the single-skill full-maxed-monkey, the broad-skill half-maxed-monkey, as well as the party that has holes in their skill coverage that they are covering with magic. Lets say one of the challenges is a wall that has to be climbed, but there are other ways to get in. What do I set the climb DC at such that it is not both a no-brainer for the cat-burglar-concept character and too hard for the fighter who has been dropping skill points into climb every other level because he has to also balance it with Ride and Intimidate, because the party rogue has been going for social skills rather than athletic skills (or the rogue multiclassed to wizard a while back and his climb skill hasn't kept up, or what-have-you). Not only do I have to accoutn for the fact that one character can be +2, +3, or even +5 better than another who has been maxing the exacct skill depending on feat choice, but I also have to account for the skilled character who has decided to split his skill ranks between 2 skills (so is half-maxed in both). At 10th level, the maxed charater with both skill feats has a +18 skill mod before stat or magic boosts. If he picked up magic items to help him focus that skill further, it could be a +23 or +28. Whereas the half-maxed character (who we have to consider, since the big benefit of the 3.5 skill set is flexibility in assignment of skills) could only have a +9 check, and may not have chosen to pick up any skill-boosting items because he's a generalist, not a specialist. 2 characters who have been training in the skill, who are both much better than the rest of the party. And you can't even challenge both of them because the delta after magic items is right around +20 I certainly can't assume every party at 10th level has slippers of spider-climbing in adventure design; but a tthe same time I hae to take that into account.

Repeat across all skillsets, and you very quickly find out that depending on the party, either none of the skill challenges are actually challenging because the party can bypass them due to a skillmonkey with a high enough check, or they are all too hard, because there is nobody in the party with high enough skill checks. And anything I put in to make the lesser-skilled party have an easier time with the checks can also be used by the more-skilled party.
 

IanArgent said:
What do I set the climb DC at such that it is not both a no-brainer for the cat-burglar-concept character

Here this goes again--why does the DC have to not be a no-brainer for a dedicated cat-burglar. By 10th-level, if you want to be a good climber, I want to let you be a good climber, not set up a special castle that "is magically so hard to climb, you can barely make it and might fall" to take that away. A true climb-focused character can succeed with ease, even under archer fire and while moving at an accelerated pace. And that's cool!

But let's say I decided to make it really hard to Climb for some reason. The great thing about the skill system is that you often only need the expert to succeed and then make things easier for the others.

Expert climbed the superhard cliff that nobody else could climb? Awesome! We love you climb expert because without you we'd be lost--now drop a rope and lower the DC for everyone else.

Expert disarmed the superhard trap that nobody else could disarm? Awesome! We love you disarm expert because without you we'd be lost--now we can pass through safely.

Expert found the secret door that leads to all the treasure? Awesome! We love you search expert because without you we'd miss the treasure--now we can all go there.

Expert talked her way into the king's good grace and managed to double the party's reward, or seduced the evil emperor's daughter and convinced her to give him a map of the stronghold? Awesome! We love you diplomacy expert because without you we'd miss out on all these extras--now we can all enjoy the benefit you bring us! You're the man!

But when everyone can make the check, it's much less interesting for the expert. Climb expert got to the top of the really hard cliff? Oh well, the guy who rolled two 15s did at the same time, and everyone else will make it shortly. Yeah, we don't really need you climb expert. I mean I guess you're a little bit faster on average, but you're basically unnecessary. Search expert found the secret door? Eh, an untrained fellow could have found it with three of us other guys Aiding Another for a +6. No big deal. We don't really need you, Search expert. Diplomacy expert seduced the overlord's daughter? Meh, Grumpington the dwarf needed to roll a teeny bit higher, but he got a 14, so he did too. And she's an elf. Take that diplomacy expert!
 

Or to put it more simply--players feel *good* if they have the right thing to complete a task. They don't feel bad if the task was easy because they thought to have the correct niche item or skill. If they bought Slippers of Spider Climbing and the climb was a synch, they're going to high-five the guy who thought to bring the Slippers. It would, at least in my groups, be poor adventure design of the highest degree to try to make the encounter challenging for the group that brought the optimal solution along. If the skill system was changed so that everyone could automatically handle a particular aspect of the task, and not only that, the DCs were arbitrarily scaled by a GM with the explicit power level of the PCs in mind, it takes away any sense of accomplishment:

"Yeah, I know I have +25 to Balance now, but I still only make Balance checks about 75% of the time, just like at first level, because everything is just harder to balance with now. It's weird that way."
 

Not really the issue, though, is it?

The real question vis-a-vis, say, SWSE, is whether a +5 difference is sufficient to distinguish an untrained character from a trained one, or a +10 difference is sufficient to distinguish an untrained character from a specialist in the skill. My feeling is that when you add in the stat modifiers and trained-only skill uses, it probably is enough.

Moreover, I'm seeing a bit of a strawman argument here in people being worried about the difference between skill-monkeys and others at high levels. Are we really concerned about the fact that a twentieth-level wizard (Climb +10) might actually be able to climb a difficult slope? Does it really matter, even?
 

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