Skills?

[Aus_Snow]

I'm not 100% sure it was skills being referenced. I think it might have been a general "Star Wars Saga Edition" was developed after 4E was being worked on, so some things in it came from 4E.

Ah, right. I had no real idea, just hearsay to go on.

I should probably slog through all those podcasts, YouTube presentations, FAQs, blogs and whatever else. But no. Blech. I really, truly can't be bothered.

But either way, my apologies to those I might have misled, minor though it might've been..

 

[AllisterH]

Torduk, the grumpy 10th level dwarf fighter(that never ever considered learning diplomacy, since it's not even a class skill for him) is as diplomatic as Gilberto, the 1st level noble paladin that trained all his life in diplomacy (he has the skill trainning in it).
Being a sucker is not always bad, it creates interesting roleplaying situation sometimes. If the wizard can't climb, he must find a creative solution for it. It's a challenge, and the game is about overcoming challenges. And solutions that are not in the book are funny too.
And whatever, I just think playing a grumpy dwarf is a lot of fun ,and I wanna be able to keep playing that.

Er, I don't have SAGA SWs either, but I think you might be doing a diservice. Perhaps another example would suffice since the use of talents changes it.

Stealth for an ordinary character: 1/2 level + DEX modifier (no training)
Stealth for a trained character: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 5 (Stealth as a trained skill)

So far, so good, right? Now, from here, there are several ways to improve your Stealth abilities:

Stealth for a focused character: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 10 (Stealth trained, + Skill Focus: Stealth)

Stealth for a Scout with the right Talents: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 5. Reroll any Stealth roll and take the better roll. Move at normal speed with no penalty to Stealth.(Stealth trained, Scout talents Improved Stealth and Hidden Movement)

If you really want to go nuts, these things all stack:

Stealth for an uber-Stealth god: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 10. Reroll any Stealth roll and take the better roll. Move at normal speed with no penalty to Stealth.(Stealth trained, Skill Focus: Stealth, Scout talents Improved Stealth and Hidden Movement


Thus, even if you're a 20th level dwarven fighter who has no interest whatsoever in Stealth, even though you have the same Stealth value as a 1st level "scout/rogue", the scout will be much better than you since he can do "MORE" with the skill.

The Trained modifier is the biggest factor since this allows a character to do more with the skill.

As I mentioned before, I don't have SW saga, but from what I understand, all skills have a "trained" line in their description.

Thus, a 1st level character TRAINED in say the Climb skill doesn't need equipment to scale a wall whereas even though the 20th level non-trained mage, can climb a wall but needs equipment.

I can see where this is attractive since it does encourage you to attempt actions even if you're not trained, as well, it makes it easier for the DM to create mid to high level characters and just as importantly, you can have skills that are appropriate for 1st level characters but at the same time, the PCs don't automatically blow the scale off.

Remember, at mid to high levels, most skills didn't really matter since unless it was against an opposed DC, you only needed a certain skill point value.

 

[an_idol_mind]

Here's my problem with the Saga edition style of skills:

I have a character who in his backstory was involved in a horrible shipwreck at sea. He's spent over 100 years (he's an elf) avoiding ships and water. The very thought of being in the water used to make him break out in a cold sweat, even though he's fought dragons and demons without blinking. Recently, he's finally overcome that fear. At his next level up, I'm planning on putting a few ranks in Swim to demonstrate that he is slowly acclimating himself to the water. Using a Saga-style skill system, though, he's already a competent swimmer, even though he's never received any real training in it and has avoided bodies of water like they're the plague.

Similarly, that same character has dabbled in music, and has 4 ranks or so in Perform (stringed instruments). But he's never done more than that, nor has he shown an interest in being more than a casual player. By the Saga system, though, he'd be able to retire from adventuring and live quite comfortably as a renowned minstrel.

I'd personally like to see something of a hybrid system, where a character has all the primary skills for his class, with a small number of discretionary points to assign to other skills. That way, a rogue doesn't need to worry about forgetting to take Sleight of Hand, and Rodar the fighter can take 2 ranks in Spellcraft to represent the minor training he had before getting tossed out of the wizard academy and picking up a greatsword.

 

[Technomancer]

Maybe the Flaw mechanic from Unearthed Arcana can ameliorate to some degree having skills advance on their own and PCs being good at skills their players don't want them to be good at?

 

[F4NBOY]

Er, I don't have SAGA SWs either, but I think you might be doing a diservice. Perhaps another example would suffice since the use of talents changes it.

Stealth for an ordinary character: 1/2 level + DEX modifier (no training)
Stealth for a trained character: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 5 (Stealth as a trained skill)

So far, so good, right? Now, from here, there are several ways to improve your Stealth abilities:

Stealth for a focused character: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 10 (Stealth trained, + Skill Focus: Stealth)

Stealth for a Scout with the right Talents: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 5. Reroll any Stealth roll and take the better roll. Move at normal speed with no penalty to Stealth.(Stealth trained, Scout talents Improved Stealth and Hidden Movement)

If you really want to go nuts, these things all stack:

Stealth for an uber-Stealth god: 1/2 level + DEX modifier + 10. Reroll any Stealth roll and take the better roll. Move at normal speed with no penalty to Stealth.(Stealth trained, Skill Focus: Stealth, Scout talents Improved Stealth and Hidden Movement


Thus, even if you're a 20th level dwarven fighter who has no interest whatsoever in Stealth, even though you have the same Stealth value as a 1st level "scout/rogue", the scout will be much better than you since he can do "MORE" with the skill.

The Trained modifier is the biggest factor since this allows a character to do more with the skill.

As I mentioned before, I don't have SW saga, but from what I understand, all skills have a "trained" line in their description.

Thus, a 1st level character TRAINED in say the Climb skill doesn't need equipment to scale a wall whereas even though the 20th level non-trained mage, can climb a wall but needs equipment.

I can see where this is attractive since it does encourage you to attempt actions even if you're not trained, as well, it makes it easier for the DM to create mid to high level characters and just as importantly, you can have skills that are appropriate for 1st level characters but at the same time, the PCs don't automatically blow the scale off.

Remember, at mid to high levels, most skills didn't really matter since unless it was against an opposed DC, you only needed a certain skill point value.

My point was that I don't think that a grumpy dwarf, no matter how high his level is, should get free ranks in diplomacy.

Of course Gilberto would be better in Diplomacy check at his 1st lvl, comparing to the 10th level dwarf, but the problem I see is not with Gilberto having just a few, but with the dwarf having to much.


I don't think Dorkis, the 20th level wizard should get 10 free ranks in Intimidate, and be as much or even more intimidating than Destructor, the 10th level Barbarian. And even if Dorkis wanted to be very intimidating he would not be able to, because he can't take Skill Training nor Skill Focus, since Intimidate is not a class skill for him. OTOH, with the present skill system, Dorkis can have 0 ranks in diplomacy if he wishes (plus any ability mod) or have a +14 modifier (max ranks for cross class skill plus Skill Focus). In a Saga "world", all Wizards of the same level are always equally intimidating (not considering any Charisma bonus).

To simplify my point, they made SAGA skill system this way to make all PC characters jacks-of-all-trades, to better simulate what we see in the movies. D&D characters are note meant to be jack-of-all-trades at all, unless they want too.

 

[Jim DelRosso]

Well, don't forget ability mods. If the grumpy dwarf has the low Charisma to go with his disposition, that's gonna erode his untrained skill bonus. Also note: SWSE doesn't have Diplomacy of Intimidate skills, rolling both into Persuasion. If D&D4e does something similar, you could simply use that untrained bonus exclusively to scare folks, thus keeping closer to your character concept. And we're not sure yet how "cross class" skills will work in 4e; it's been seriously debated regarding SWSE, so we may see some changes before 4e hits, even if they go with a SWSE-type system.

 

[drothgery]

As I mentioned before, I don't have SW saga, but from what I understand, all skills have a "trained" line in their description.

Thus, a 1st level character TRAINED in say the Climb skill doesn't need equipment to scale a wall whereas even though the 20th level non-trained mage, can climb a wall but needs equipment.

That's not quite true; some skills have no trained-only uses (Deception is one of those, so my high-charisma Twi'lek Scoundrel 5/Jedi 1 with a species ability to re-roll Deception checks and the Scoundrel's Fool's Luck Talent -- which lets her spend a Force Point to get a bonus to all skills for an encounter -- is actually pretty good at it despite being untrained in Deception), and some skills have no untrained uses (Mechanics is the most notable there; you can't break a security system or repair an X-Wing untrained, so the aforementioned Twi'lek has rather more mechanical aptitude than her fellow Padawans).

 

[F4NBOY]

so we may see some changes before 4e hits, even if they go with a SWSE-type system

That's exactly what I want, if it were the case

 

[Jim DelRosso]

That's exactly what I want, if it were the case

It's still too early to tell. Even making a distinction between Intimidate and Diplomacy is incorrect when talking about SWSE, since the game combines them into Persuasion. And we've got no idea what is or isn't going into the class skill list for Wizards yet; for all we know, they might even have access to a talent that allows them to use some kind of magic check in place of Persuasion, like Jedi in SWSE.

Time will tell.

 

[AllisterH]

I don't think Dorkis, the 20th level wizard should get 10 free ranks in Intimidate, and be as much or even more intimidating than Destructor, the 10th level Barbarian.

To simplify my point, they made SAGA skill system this way to make all PC characters jacks-of-all-trades, to better simulate what we see in the movies. D&D characters are note meant to be jack-of-all-trades at all, unless they want too.

But I can see why this might be true in D&D as well. You're not a "medieval" citizen whose only experience is tied to the small village he grew up in and thus, you only know a few things. You've been crisscrossing the country/continent/world/universe and in that down time, you've picked up a few things.

You're a 20th level character who has been around and can make reality sit up and do the polka Damn straight you should be intimidating though. Its similar to the BAB we have right now. Even though your mage could have NEVER rolled an attack roll, you're still leagues better than a 1st level fighter.

re: Death of the skill monkey. Not to my understanding. Saga simply defines skilled differently. It isn't a case of what Skill Points you have assigned, but what skills you're trained in.