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Message: <blockquote data-quote="SHARK" data-source="post: 426083" data-attributes="member: 1131">Greetings!Gnomeworks:Well, you certainly sound like you have a very good attitude about it Gnomeworks! Having the passion to be dramatic, thorough, and realistic is good, and I think will only serve to not only make you a better Game Master, but will also increase the value and enjoyment of playing in your campaigns with your friends, especially over time. It takes time, passion, and attention to detail to work these kinds of themes into the game, and in the long run, I have found them to be very rewarding!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />You also sound quite mature--especially so for 15 years old. Strangely, I have found that a number of teenagers are far more worldly and balanced about such themes than numerous adults. It's funny how teenagers--supposedly the one's that according to many adults are so fragile and will be horribly damaged by being exposed to such themes are much more in control and less hysterical about the subject matter than some adults. Wierd, huh? I applaud your efforts and your desire to excel in such a manner! I'm also glad that you are enjoying the thread! I have been reading many of the BOVD threads over the last few weeks or so, and so many of them get off on tangents, and get mired in senseless bickering by *adults* that have seemed to forget that we are talking about a GAME here, you know? I was having a conversation with my wife about many of the threads about the BOVD, and it seems to me that to a great extent, many people are making entirely wrong assumptions about what exactly is in the book, and even when they know what is in the work, they take off on some topic where they seem to be pouring far more into the text and the ideas than what is really called for. They seem to fail to understand the deeper issues or miss salient points that are important.Take your time, and make the effort to weave into your games various threads like the ones discussed here, and I think you will begin to enjoy a greater degree of realism, depth, drama, and verissimillitude in your games.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Of course, the fact that you have gathered together a group that is entirely too immature to deal with such topics is unfortunate, but I trust that you will find ways to bring them along, or integrate new players who are more mature, if that is your desire. Your rational, open-minded thinking and willingness to look at topics from different perspectives is refreshing, and quite welcome. I would hope that your players can appreciate such traits in you as well!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />GreyIguana:I'm glad you like the thread as well GreyIguana! Your giant society sounds interesting. Have your players met these giants before? How detailed have you made this interesting culture? How have your players responded to genocide in the campaign? I like the Caligula character in your campaign! What a bastard!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I'm sure the player enjoyed bringing him down, heh?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> NooneofConsequence:Your "Sisterhood of The White Rose" sounds quite intriguing! Would you care to post the prestige class that you talked about? That sounds very cool.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Your wife is a social worker, heh? I imagine she knows a lot about the darker side of humanity.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> How long has she been playing D&D with you? How does she react to the mature themes that you include in your campaigns? She sounds like a good player, too!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Buttercup:Hey there Buttercup! Indeed, breeding for half-elf slaves is wicked!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I love it.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I'm sure your players were enthralled with such a plot, huh?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Mad kings are good! Might I suggest that you pick up a good psychology book that discusses pathologies and aberrant psychology to assist you? Such detailed research can bring a great degree of power to your characterization and to the plot as well. You might be surprised to learn about the breathtaking variety of different neurosis and pathologies that exist. Certainly, while tragic and troubling in a real world sense, they can make for great stories in coping with such problems, whether in a favorite NPC, a villain, or even a player character. Great stuff! CCamfield:Well, no "Red Herring" at all, really. War is a dramatic backdrop wherein much of the aforementioned topics take root, and it also serves as a springboard for a great deal of trauma and the perpetration of horrendous atrocities and barbarities. Thus, in a variety of applications, seguing and overlapping with the other themes.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />The same can be said for torture and so on. The thread was generally intended as a philosophical discussion, taking such previous commentary as a springboard for inspiration, as opposed to a strict point-for-point quotation and debate.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />In thinking about my "comic-book" comparisson, well, and this is important--do you think comic-book conventions are necessarily *bad*? In thinking about comic-book conventions, traditionally, they have embraced a lack of killing, the good guys always win, no mature themes, and so on. That is a traditional comic-book philosophy. From that, with many members commenting on BOVD, their philosophies seemed to parallel such comic-book philosophy, as might your own. That isn't a personal attack, and it isn't degrading you personally, or anyone who embraces a comic-book philosophy. The distinctions, however, are very real, and factual. Certainly, one can have a fine game embracing comic-book philosophy, but, by definition, that style of game *won't* have the themes in it that we are discussing, correct? Furthermore, though the topic at hand is exploring such, I am somewhat puzzled at the *vehemence* and adamant attitudes that some who embrace such a philosophy have taken in regards to including--or not--such mature themes in a campaign. When the game centers chiefly on the mass slaughter and looting of other sentient creatures, and the pursuit of wealth and power almost without restraint, I find it mystifying how the inclusion of rape or slavery, or torture, as plot elements in the campaign and as character-development points, is somehow beyond the pale.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Likewise, in a similar vein, cartoons have a similar underlying mechanic at work like comic-books, where "evil" or the opposition, is often seen a a sort of nebulous form, with goals that can seem contrived and shallow after a time. They are always after world domination, or they are seeking to kill Bugs Bunny or Barny--why?--just because!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Or obviously!--because the bumblebee team is evil, that's why!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Certainly, I'm not saying that "Slavery, Rape, Madness, and War!" are the be-all and end-all to plot development, but I do make the assertion that if you subscribe to rigidly sanitizing your campaign from virtually every kind of real human conflict and making sure that there is never any kind of potentially difficult or adult-themed element in the game, that that does, philosophically, have more in common with the cartoonish/comic-book philosophy, and does not usually have the same scope of depth and drama that a campaign might have that doesn't do so.Some people just don't like to even think of such topics--that's ok. Others, as some have mentioned, have people in their groups that have actually been raped. For them I can understand that. I can also see why one would not want to include such mature themes when playing with children, or with young teenagers. I wouldn't either. I do wonder what inhibits people from including such themes though when such conditions don't exist though. That's all really!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />No need for anyone to get "pissed off" my friend! Just having a conversation! If in doubt, instead of some people assuming the worst in someone, it's always good to just engage the person in conversation and dialogue! Most of the time, people are not intentionally trying to be offensive, or to hurt your feelings, you know? I certainly don't have that intention. Just trying to have an interesting conversation, and get a handle and a better understanding on different themes, and some people's problems, objections, or difficulties with handling such themes.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Just some thoughts!Ace: Players that are immature? Damn my friend! Your games are like tabletop Diablo?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> LOL!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> That made me laugh so much! I can just see you saying such too Ace! "I feel your pain!"<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Well, I certainly wish you the best in finding a new, more mature group to play with! Hopefully some people that are more capable than just a game of tabletop Diablo!I have a friend who uncannily seems to have very Diablo-like attitudes and approaches to the game, too! He always makes me laugh when I needle him about D&D not being a damn video game! He insists that computer games like Neverwinter Nights and so on are roleplaying games, and the thing he doesn't see is that he often brings certain assumptions from playing the video game into the D&D game, and they certainly don't mix, especially in my campaign world! Then, because of these video-game assumptions that he makes while playing D&D on occasion cause him to get hammered, or to miss out on something, or make the wrong assumptions about something, he then gets all frustrated on me because I don't run my D&D campaign like the video-game world!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> We laugh and have fun with it, but the whole video-game assumptions can indeed be frustrating. I'm glad he isn't too steeped in the video games, apparently like your players seem to hopelessly be swallowed up by! I wish you the best Ace!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Semper Fidelis,SHARK</blockquote>

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