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<blockquote data-quote="Jabborwacky" data-source="post: 6772090" data-attributes="member: 98608">As a little background, I decided to look around for errata to see if WoTC changed over to a less chaotic set of mechanics for determining whether sleep is actually worth casting only to find this old thread. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?362390-Sleep-Spell-1st-Level-No-Save-Death-Spell" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?362390-Sleep-Spell-1st-Level-No-Save-Death-Spell</a>What surprises me is that no one is calling out the obvious problem with the entire thread: Sleep is NOT a save-or-die spell. To qualify as save-or-die, a spell needs to be able to flat out kill a target with a single saving throw, regardless of hit points. A symbol of death in previous editions was a definite save-or-die spell, as was flesh to stone. Sleep fulfills a different mechanical niche: It prevents a number of opponents from dealing damage. Crowd control spells are not save-or-die spells. Causing a fight to become one-sided with the clever use of a spell isn't &quot;save-or-die.&quot; Technically, even if a spell were to be powerful enough to deal damage sufficient to bring a creature from full health to zero, it still doesn't qualify for the title. Save-or-die effects were problematic specifically because they bypassed all forms of defense except a saving throw. Used on players, they could instantly end the game. Sleep doesn't do this.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jabborwacky, post: 6772090, member: 98608"] As a little background, I decided to look around for errata to see if WoTC changed over to a less chaotic set of mechanics for determining whether sleep is actually worth casting only to find this old thread. [url]http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?362390-Sleep-Spell-1st-Level-No-Save-Death-Spell[/url] What surprises me is that no one is calling out the obvious problem with the entire thread: Sleep is NOT a save-or-die spell. To qualify as save-or-die, a spell needs to be able to flat out kill a target with a single saving throw, regardless of hit points. A symbol of death in previous editions was a definite save-or-die spell, as was flesh to stone. Sleep fulfills a different mechanical niche: It prevents a number of opponents from dealing damage. Crowd control spells are not save-or-die spells. Causing a fight to become one-sided with the clever use of a spell isn't "save-or-die." Technically, even if a spell were to be powerful enough to deal damage sufficient to bring a creature from full health to zero, it still doesn't qualify for the title. Save-or-die effects were problematic specifically because they bypassed all forms of defense except a saving throw. Used on players, they could instantly end the game. Sleep doesn't do this. [/QUOTE]

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