D&D 5E Sleep is not a save-or-die spell (minor rant)

[Jabborwacky]

As a little background, I decided to look around for errata to see if WoTC changed over to a less chaotic set of mechanics for determining whether sleep is actually worth casting only to find this old thread.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?362390-Sleep-Spell-1st-Level-No-Save-Death-Spell

What surprises me is that no one is calling out the obvious problem with the entire thread: Sleep is NOT a save-or-die spell. To qualify as save-or-die, a spell needs to be able to flat out kill a target with a single saving throw, regardless of hit points. A symbol of death in previous editions was a definite save-or-die spell, as was flesh to stone. Sleep fulfills a different mechanical niche: It prevents a number of opponents from dealing damage.

Crowd control spells are not save-or-die spells. Causing a fight to become one-sided with the clever use of a spell isn't "save-or-die." Technically, even if a spell were to be powerful enough to deal damage sufficient to bring a creature from full health to zero, it still doesn't qualify for the title. Save-or-die effects were problematic specifically because they bypassed all forms of defense except a saving throw. Used on players, they could instantly end the game. Sleep doesn't do this.

 

[AriochQ]

And why would you not just post this comment on that thread instead of starting a new one? Just sayin'

 

[Blue]

The sleep spell that can put you to sleep for longer than the length of an average combat so you are at their mercy. If you have few enough HPs for sleep to affect you, the automatic critical they can get (Unconcious condition, PHB 292) will likely kill you.

Alternately since it takes damage or someone spending an action to slap or shake you awake they can probably carefully tie you up/manacle you, toss you into off a cliff, take away all of your weapons, put you in a noose, or other thing that doesn't jostle or hurt you prior to it going off.

Yes, the spell doesn't kill you itself, but it does completely take you out. Just like petrification can turn you to stone but "you're not dead".

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Falling asleep is often death, but it's not like it's a spell where you even roll a saving throw. It's work much more like a damage spell. And it can hit allies and yourself.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Falling asleep is often death, but it's not like it's a spell where you even roll a saving throw. It's work much more like a damage spell. And it can hit allies and yourself.

That actually happened in our game last weekend lol. Put the ranger asleep instead of the attackers.

IMO, I thnk sleep is highly underrated. Even at level 8 and 9, it's still one of the wizard's go to spells.

 

[Raith5]

The spell is powerful (especially at low levels) because there is no save. So I dont get that it could be referred to as a 'save or die' like effect.

It is a very powerful spell used a lot by my party - almost to the point of being annoying. I wish it did conform to the save mechanism!

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Yeah, it's strong, but it's more of a high damage spell. It's particularly good against enemies with high AC. Its weak point is melee enemies that have more HP than the adventurers.

 

[Raunalyn]

The weakness of Sleep, though, is that an enemy can walk around and start waking up any of their allies affected by the spell. In my games, I say it's a bonus action to slap someone upside the face to wake them up. Yes, it can be debilitating for a round or two, but it's not impossible to overcome.

 

[slaughterj]

Yeah, it's strong, but it's more of a high damage spell. It's particularly good against enemies with high AC. Its weak point is melee enemies that have more HP than the adventurers.

It's other weak point is you don't know the foes' HP so you don't know whether it is going to be effective at all.

It is not a save-or-die spell, as there is no save, and in some ways it is better and some ways it is worse (for the targets).

I have seen across several campaigns multiple otherwise experienced gamers suck at casting Sleep, it is quite humorous. For "known" foes like kobolds, goblins, etc., assuming the DM is using standard stats, one can cast with confidence as to effect. But people just can't seem to understand that against humans, who could vary significantly in HP and you just don't know where they are at, that you can't just waltz in and cast it and expect effectiveness. At best, wait until your comrades have applied a few beatings to wear down the enemy, and then use it take them out if you can position it well, and/or use it on a beaten-down foe who is about to try to escape.

 

[slaughterj]

The weakness of Sleep, though, is that an enemy can walk around and start waking up any of their allies affected by the spell. In my games, I say it's a bonus action to slap someone upside the face to wake them up. Yes, it can be debilitating for a round or two, but it's not impossible to overcome.

That would be a house-rule though, since a Bonus Action can only be used for actions that explicitly use a Bonus Action; if you don't have such an action available, then you can't take a Bonus Action. RAW it would be a Standard Action, but even then, there are times in which it might make sense.