D&D 5E Help parsing 3rd party spell

[James Gasik]

In the moment I had forgotten that you get 2 auto death saves because of the Unconscious condition. It does seem that the moment the spell is used is what makes it seem strong.

If the target drops to 0 and there won't be three possible attacks on the target, then, barring a critical hit, you're golden. You can be healed at any point before you have to make a death save and you're good.

If, on the other hand, it is possible to be attacked thrice before anyone can heal you, then it's not so great, the only advantage being that attacks have to be made without the modifiers for you being unconscious + prone.

The issues being the lack of duration, which might lead to some strangeness, like, say you get hit with stabilize or a medicine check. If the spell doesn't end until you're healed, and you don't have to make death saves because you're no longer dying...does the spell end? Or are you effectively immortal until you regain hit points?

And of course, exactly when you're meant to make that delayed death saving throw, as the arguments for both positions seem fairly valid.

At any rate, thanks for all the replies!

 

[MarkB]

In the moment I had forgotten that you get 2 auto death saves because of the Unconscious condition. It does seem that the moment the spell is used is what makes it seem strong.

If the target drops to 0 and there won't be three possible attacks on the target, then, barring a critical hit, you're golden. You can be healed at any point before you have to make a death save and you're good.

If, on the other hand, it is possible to be attacked thrice before anyone can heal you, then it's not so great, the only advantage being that attacks have to be made without the modifiers for you being unconscious + prone.

Plus, since you're still an active combatant, creatures are more likely to attempt to hit you rather than prioritising other threats.

The issues being the lack of duration, which might lead to some strangeness, like, say you get hit with stabilize or a medicine check. If the spell doesn't end until you're healed, and you don't have to make death saves because you're no longer dying...does the spell end? Or are you effectively immortal until you regain hit points?

One funny thing is that you can't be stabilised by someone making a Medicine check, because the death and dying rules specify that this check is made to an unconscious creature.

However, if you stabilise due to succeeding on three death saves, the rule there is that you "remain" unconscious, so if you're not unconscious in the first place, it would seem that the spell still persists and you can be up and walking around no longer having to make death saves.

And of course, exactly when you're meant to make that delayed death saving throw, as the arguments for both positions seem fairly valid.

And also, what happens on subsequent turns. Normally you make your death save at the start of your turn, so do you have to do so on any subsequent turn even though you're still conscious?

 

[billd91]

And also, what happens on subsequent turns. Normally you make your death save at the start of your turn, so do you have to do so on any subsequent turn even though you're still conscious?

I would think so. It gives the target one round of grace to really get their crap together. After that, the death saves could stop you cold before you get to act.

 

[Maxperson]

In my current group, a lot of 3rd party content from Kobold Press is allowed, though recently, my heavy-spellcaster party has been coming to me with some truly strange spells from books such as Deep Magic volumes I + II, and last session, one from the Tome of Heroes.

I've run into my fair share of bizarre KP spells, which suffer from poor editing or the designer apparently not thinking to close loopholes or even consider edge cases, but this one truly takes the cake- as near as I can tell, it will completely remove death and dying from the game (instead of making it merely a brief interlude in many cases).

Here's the offender.

View attachment 382568
So here's the scenario- the PC's were up against a powerful zombie red dragon, animated by the soul of a long-dead archmage due a chain of mishaps, starting with a failed attempt at lichdom.

One party member had hit the zombie with a powerful debuff with a concentration requirement. In order to remove it, the zombie focused it's attacks on them. It had three attacks, it's bite and two claws.

The bite and claw would have knocked the character unconscious, but the Cleric cast the above spell. This allowed the character to maintain concentration after succeeding at a trio of Con saves. Not sure what to do, the dragon hit again, causing two automatically failed death saves to be delivered (as the spell doesn't say anything about this).

But due to the wording of the spell, the character had until the end of their next turn to make their third and final death save, and the dragon wouldn't have another chance to attack until after that point (there was some contention about whether the death save was delayed until the end of the character's next turn OR if they simply had protection from having to make death saves at all until the end of their next turn, and wouldn't have to make one until the start of the turn after their next turn. Not that it ended up mattering).

Given that death from massive damage is already very difficult to do after the first few levels (many powerful 5e enemies rely on multiple attacks to deal damage, instead of one huge attack), doubling the threshold pretty much makes it impossible.

The character was able to heal themselves on their next turn, ending the spell with no ill effect.

So my question is twofold- how does this spell work (basically wanting to know if I read it right) and am I right in thinking it basically makes a character immortal unless they are faced by many foes? And as a distant third, is this spell out of bounds and in need of a major rewrite or ban?

Yeah, that spell is weird. Starting with the trigger being 0 hit points, and the text beginning with, "When the target is reduced to 0 hit points..." The target already was!!

So it looks like the following.

1. You do not fall unconscious from being at 0 hit points.
2. You still roll all death saves and have disadvantage for the first one, which happens the next turn as usual.
3. You have tremendous resistance to death from massive damage, which is already so high that it almost never enters the game once you hit like 3rd level.
4. The duration is written into the spell. It lasts until you regain 1 hit point.

Note, you still take death saves when you are hit, so using that spell is a virtual death sentence when being hit is coupled with the disadvantage on the first death save.

That spell is far from removing death and dying from the game. Instead it's so bad that it's a pretty much guaranteed death.

 

[Maxperson]

Hey there. So my read of this is that it does not make the character immortal. As Quickleaf noted, any damage becomes a failed death save. This just lets you keep going while at the point of death.

As far as when they make the death save, the spell says they don't make them until the end of their next turn. So, in effect, that would mean the start of the turn after that.

For example...

Round 1 - character drops to 0
Round 2 - character acts normally without needing to make death saves
Round 3 - character makes a death save with disadvantage.

This example doesn't account for "failing" death saves due to damage.

I doubt the spell is intended to make you immune from failing death saves due to taking damage (especially since you aren't "rolling" death saves in that instance)

The spell explicitly says that you make death saves as normal, which means every round follow the round you drop to 0. You aren't even immune to rolling death saves and have to do it after the first death save at disadvantage. That coupled with auto death saves when hit and two when you are critted, and it's a spell you don't use unless you are going to die anyway.

 

[Maxperson]

Honestly, I think it would put the PC at more risk of actually dying, not less. Nothing changes the rule that every time damage is inflicted, a death save is failed. Not so bad against a large solo monster, but if you have several mooks, that PC is in some serious trouble.

Not to mention that every 3rd level slot used to cast the spell is a slot no longer available to revivify.

Nah. It's even horrible against solo monsters, since those tend to have multiple attacks. You cast the spell and if you are hit twice(or crit once), you are likely dead when you roll that save with disadvantage at the end of your next turn. And that doesn't even take into consideration all the spells and abilities with ongoing buring/acid/whatever damage that can cause death saves even if the monster doesn't hit you again.

 

[Maxperson]

And also, what happens on subsequent turns. Normally you make your death save at the start of your turn, so do you have to do so on any subsequent turn even though you're still conscious?

It says you make death saves as normal and then lays out an exception for round 1. Round 2+ would be saves at the beginning of the round. Presumably they did that so that if you are hit a few times before your next turn, you can still do something before you die and not completely waste the spell.

 

[MarkB]

Nah. It's even horrible against solo monsters, since those tend to have multiple attacks. You cast the spell and if you are hit twice(or crit once), you are likely dead when you roll that save with disadvantage at the end of your next turn. And that doesn't even take into consideration all the spells and abilities with ongoing buring/acid/whatever damage that can cause death saves even if the monster doesn't hit you again.

And even moreso against a legendary opponent that can drop a few more attacks or damaging effects between turns.

 

[billd91]

The issues being the lack of duration, which might lead to some strangeness, like, say you get hit with stabilize or a medicine check. If the spell doesn't end until you're healed, and you don't have to make death saves because you're no longer dying...does the spell end? Or are you effectively immortal until you regain hit points?

That’s hardly immortal because any damage and you’re back to death saves with one fail already banked.

 

[Maxperson]

And even moreso against a legendary opponent that can drop a few more attacks or damaging effects between turns.

I wouldn't even bother to get that spell, let alone memorize it. So many other 3rd levels spells that are much better.