Small Gods, Epic (Six) Heroes

[Umbran]

This is exactly the reason I'd give all of these "Gods" specific "thematic" (non-combat for the worst part) powers in addition to the combat abilities; the Dryad, for example, should have power over plants and harvest, and maybe even weather. So people would worship her and give her offerings in return for her using her powers to bless their crops and maybe even bring better rains.

Yes. But, by adding powers, you're probably changing the CR of the critter. If you aren't careful, you change it pretty heftily.

For the Dryad, for example, how many spell-like powers are you figuring you need to add to make it work out? And how many of those aren't goign to make her tougher in a fight?

Not saying you can't do it. You certainly can. I'm just saying you have to be *careful* in doing it. If you aren't being careful, you quickly wander out of the realm of "small" gods. That dryad with weather control - why doesn't she just slap down a massive snowstorm when threatened, and get you a nice solid TPK from exposure?

sure, in real life you can't see the Kami themselves...

Many folks seem to gloss over that, but to me it always seems to be a major point.

There should be a major difference between worship of gods you cannot see, and worship of gods who walked into your tavern last week to get drunk - especially if that god is of limited power.

 

[Filcher]

If it doesn’t effect the PCs, why stat it? The locals say appeasing the dryad makes it rain, the head shaman claims that is who grants him his spells, and the DM agrees.

For every CR above 5, the beastie has the power the grant that level of spells. Beyond that, do we really need to know how many times the dryad can make it rain?

 

[Shades of Green]

Yes. But, by adding powers, you're probably changing the CR of the critter. If you aren't careful, you change it pretty heftily.

For the Dryad, for example, how many spell-like powers are you figuring you need to add to make it work out? And how many of those aren't goign to make her tougher in a fight?

Not saying you can't do it. You certainly can. I'm just saying you have to be *careful* in doing it. If you aren't being careful, you quickly wander out of the realm of "small" gods. That dryad with weather control - why doesn't she just slap down a massive snowstorm when threatened, and get you a nice solid TPK from exposure?

Well, casting time takes care of that; most battles would be over in the ten minutes it takes to whip up such spells. And for weaker monsters, for the very least, weather control would be much more limited in scope.

There should be a major difference between worship of gods you cannot see, and worship of gods who walked into your tavern last week to get drunk - especially if that god is of limited power.

I don't think they'll walk into your tavern to get drunk; they'd probably limit their interaction with mortals, especially since most of these creatures (except from ancestor spirits) would be quite alien in nature.

 

[Filcher]

Gene Wolfe used a very similar concept in The Soldier in the Mist. Definitely worth a read. He pulls it off well.

Also, playing off the OP title, I like the thought of Small Gods also being petty gods ...

 

[Alzrius]

Umbran's note about worshiping such gods as a sort of protection racket isn't without it's place in this sort of setting. Worship can be given to ask for a "god" to withhold something awful, as well as asking for something good.

Having said that, there is still a legitimate problem of - as per the stats - most low-level monsters not being able to engage in a "you do this for me, and I do this for you" relationship that's the foundation of the sort of worship the OP mentioned. Now, as was mentioned, you can just give them the necessary powers, but that can be problematic where CR is concerned, especially for a setting where a low CR goes a much longer way.

I think the best way to go about it is to use a few third-party supplements that help to codify adding new powers, so that the process is simple and its impact on CR can be more easily measured.

To add new powers to a creature, I recommend the Spellpowered template, from the Book of Templates Deluxe Edition 3.5. It lets you add new spell-like abilities to a creature, using an easy rubric to calculate their power and how often they can be used. It's a +1 CR template, with an additional +1 CR if the creature has 7 Hit Dice or more, and another +1 CR if it has 16 Hit Dice or more.

Now, if you use particularly non-combat-oriented spells, I'd suggest lowering each of those guidelines by 1 (e.g. the template adds +0 CR, +1 if the base creature has 7 or more Hit Dice, etc.). But then what's a good source for non-combat spells? Well, here's a few:

Hedge Magic Heroes (Part I). A seven-part series of low-level (0, 1st, and 2nd) level spells dedicated to non-adventuring tasks.

Octavirate Presents #3: Simple Tricks and Nonsense. A book of cantrips and cantrip-related material.

Minor Magicks. A sourcebook with a lot of low-level non-combat spells and related magic items.

Using the Spellpowered template to give a creature a series of spell-like abilities, and then utilizing these resources to make those spell-like abilities be of a practical utilitarian nature, will easily make it possible to have low-CR monsters fill the role the OP wants them to.

About the only question left to answer is what the creature gets out of the deal, in exchange for doing what it does for people. That's also a question easily answered, usually with local concerns (e.g. small sacrifices, respecting some personal tradition, etc.).

 

[Umbran]

Well, casting time takes care of that; most battles would be over in the ten minutes it takes to whip up such spells.

Ten minutes? Call lightning takes a single round. Sleet storm is a standard action. Why does this take ten minutes?

And the dryad has tree stride, allowing her to get to a distance on the order of a half-mile away with one standard action. If she can't keep away from a party of adventurers below 6th level for ten minutes, she's being kind of dumb, isn't she?

Most powers useful for giving boons to humans and their communities, in the hands of someone just moderately clever, are apt to be useful in conflict as well. You have to work at it to keep them from being so, is all I'm saying. You have to look carefully at how you do it so that it mechanically works, and is still consistent with the effect you want.

Unless, of course, you want to just make it up and if the players ask how that works out, you say, "just because". I actually don't have a problem with that. But it flies in the face of worrying a bout the CR of the critter in the first place.

I don't think they'll walk into your tavern to get drunk; they'd probably limit their interaction with mortals, especially since most of these creatures (except from ancestor spirits) would be quite alien in nature.

So, it is a world in which religion is personal, and requires role-playing through interactions with the gods themselves... except they don't interact all that much?

I was speaking figuratively with the tavern. Let me use a usual phrase that generalizes it - familiarity breeds contempt. If you actually have to interact with a being on a regular basis (and we are talking about religion,here, which implies pretty regular interaction) then you get to know that being pretty well, no?

Again, this doesn't render anything impossible. I'm just saying that it calls for some careful consideration. Distant, aloof gods are far simpler to keep consistent.

 

[Stormonu]

I think this is a really intriguing idea, and would present a really different sort of feeling world.

There could be several ways to handle the powers of the small gods. The first of course, is to give them class levels or abilities, essentially pump up the CR. That may work best for some of the more "powerful" of these gods (say, Queen of the Hamadryads).

Perhaps the small gods powers work via bargains. The deals or promises the small gods make with mortals actually gives them some sort of magical power. As long as the promises on both sides are kept, the magic flows. For example, if the most handsome boy in a community remains unmarried and unavowed, the local dryad can use that suppressed virility to instead make the local gardens grow lush. This method may also require a CR adjustment in some cases if the powers could then be used in a combat situation.

The small gods could also gain their extraordinary abilities via incantations, rituals or other magic that requires lengthy preparation and mystical knowledge only they (reputedly) have access to. It might even be possible that characters might be able to learn some of these tricks, perhaps supplanting abusive small gods or allowing them to temporarily (or semi-permanently) take the small gods place.

And personally, I think the adventure hook Umbran threw out could be quite workable, and semi-commonplace. The above-mentioned dryad visits the local tavern and foolishly gets drunk. The PCs may then have to protect her from a boorish drunkard who seeks to take advantage of the besotted dryad; perhaps a brigand decides to steal off with the dryad and ransom her back to the town she cares for; perhaps when the barkeep shooes her out she becomes angered and threatens to rescind her bargain, leaving the lush fields barren and rotten.

The small gods could be everywhere, and quests might not be for personal gold and glory, but to seek or steal the favors of these small gods, to undertake bizarre quests to keep the small gods happy (and/or acquire the items/material/keep the promises they need to grant their favors) and so on.

Then there's always the risk of offending a small god and undertaking a quest to remove the curse or get rid of the petulant god.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

At some point in this thread the nymph became a dryad. Nymphs are CR7 by the book and already have access to 4th-level druid spells (they cast as Druid 7); dryads are only CR3 - but 5 druid levels (3 nonassociated; 2 associated) will only take one to CR 7: plant growth, diminish plants, inflict moderate wounds - no problem.

Rather than adding custom abilities, I'd strongly suggest using the rules as written and to add class levels to monsters where necessary: one of the great advantages of E6 is that you don't have to change any rules at all. Another advantage is that many of the classic mythological monsters (cockatrices, chimerae, medusae, wyverns, satyrs etc. etc.) fall comfortably within the CR range which E6 expects; many have room for a little expansion (class levels, +1 or +2 templates) without pushing things out of the park. Also, the CR system in general works pretty well at these kinds of levels when gauging challenges.

This gives you plenty of opportunity to work on the setting, rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae of fiddly mechanics add-ons. Judicious choices in the monster palette can really bring this kind of game to life.

 

[Wik]

Wait, why do monsters need to have beneficial powers to be worshipped? Umbran, I'm sorry, but I disagree with you.

Did Thulsa Doom really offer any protections to the snake cultists that followed him? In the real world, there was no beneficial reason for people to follow the Elysian mysteries, beyond the crazy fun orgies and whatnot - why can't people worship the Nymph as a physical manifestation of a natural force?

 

[Shades of Green]

Ten minutes? Call lightning takes a single round. Sleet storm is a standard action. Why does this take ten minutes?

And the dryad has tree stride, allowing her to get to a distance on the order of a half-mile away with one standard action. If she can't keep away from a party of adventurers below 6th level for ten minutes, she's being kind of dumb, isn't she?

Most powers useful for giving boons to humans and their communities, in the hands of someone just moderately clever, are apt to be useful in conflict as well. You have to work at it to keep them from being so, is all I'm saying. You have to look carefully at how you do it so that it mechanically works, and is still consistent with the effect you want.

Unless, of course, you want to just make it up and if the players ask how that works out, you say, "just because". I actually don't have a problem with that. But it flies in the face of worrying a bout the CR of the critter in the first place.

Good work finding out the flaws in my ideas.

How do you all think I could get my ideas to work, while circumventing the above-mentioned pitfalls?