sneak attack damage/extra damage dice and the VP/WP system

[wingsandsword]

Bah!! Not gritty enough! Need more grit!

One of the grittier Hit Point systems I've seen in d20 is Babylon 5's (yes I know you were being a little silly, but an alternate way of getting the same effect I thought might be relevant). A 20th level character can have, at most 69 HP (20th level soldier, rolling 6 for initial HP), and many other characters will only have 28 or 29 HP at 20th level.

Their system is: No Con bonus to HP (but Con bonus is added to any Heal checks made on the character). No max HP at first level. HP at first level is 1d6+3 to 1d6+6, and a fixed value varying by class of anywhere from 1 to 3 HP at further levels. It is meant to emulate how deadly combat is on the show, the main characters have anywhere from 6 to 29 HP. I guess if you wanted to make it even deadlier you could lower the MDT to Con like in d20 Modern, or lower it down to 10 like in d20 Cthuhlu.

 

[Ranger REG]

Now my question is what if the character has very few VP's left and they get hit with a sneak attack? Let's say they have 5 VP's left and they get hit with a 5d6 sneak attack. They don't have many VP's left to absorb that attack. Even if they have a high Con score, there is a good chance they are going to be dropped into negative WP's.

So does this make sneak attack damage too powerful in the VP/WP system? Should sneak attack damage be reduced as soon as the damage enters WP territory?

Personally, it should.

One way to do it is to apply Sneak Attack damage last. Let all other damages apply toward VP first. If there is some VP left, apply the largest die rolled for Sneak Attack, then the second largest, until VP is 0. If you have some Sneak Attack dice left, just count the dice (not the roll) and apply toward WP.

 

[GlassJaw]

A 20th level character can have, at most 69 HP (20th level soldier, rolling 6 for initial HP), and many other characters will only have 28 or 29 HP at 20th level.

The Conan system restricts hp's as well. After 10th level, you don't gain anymore Hit Dice. IIRC, you only get your Con bonus in hp's after each new level.

I guess if you wanted to make it even deadlier you could lower the MDT to Con like in d20 Modern

I won't be using a MDT in this system.

One way to do it is to apply Sneak Attack damage last. Let all other damages apply toward VP first. If there is some VP left, apply the largest die rolled for Sneak Attack, then the second largest, until VP is 0. If you have some Sneak Attack dice left, just count the dice (not the roll) and apply toward WP.

I like this system, even if it is a bit more complicated mechanically. I'm in agreement though that sneak attack dice should not be counted in full towards WP's

I've always ruled that a critical hit with bonus damage dice deals the weapon's normal damage to wound points and the bonus dice to vitality points.

So in this system, sneak attack dice never deal WP damage. It's very clean mechanically but I think it hamstrings sneak attack damage a bit. In the right circumstances, a highly-skilled sniper or assassin should be able to deal a potentially fatal blow to even the most powerful warriors.

In grittier games, I've allowed non-crit sneak attacks to deal one bonus sneak attack die directly to wound points, and the rest to vitality points as normal. However, this creates an "easy way out" for characters who want to deal wound damage more easily

As you said yourself, I think this almost makes sneak attack damage too powerful. I want a system in which taking a potentially fatal physical wound is always a possibly but never a guarantee.

How many more threads like this until we convince everyone, GlassJaw? VP/WP rocks and we shall continue to shamelessly promote it until they all agree!

Well I certainly wouldn't advocate it for all games but I do agree it's an awesome system. I also think it allows for more "realistic" modelling of injuries than the traditional hp system. Realistic probably isn't the best word to use because there is still a fair amount of "abstractness" but it definitely allows for more conditions and variations to be places on the types of injuries and level of damage that has been inflicted.

 

[genshou]

So in this system, sneak attack dice never deal WP damage. It's very clean mechanically but I think it hamstrings sneak attack damage a bit. In the right circumstances, a highly-skilled sniper or assassin should be able to deal a potentially fatal blow to even the most powerful warriors.

What I meant was that the weapon's base damage is dealt directly to wound points as is normal for a critical hit, but the sneak attack damage dice follow the normal damage rules. So, a hero with vitality points remaining will "shrug off" the sneak attack aspect of a critical hit, but not the normal damage. If they don't have enough vitality points to fully cover the sneak attack damage, however, the remaining damage then converts directly over to wound damage on a 1:1 basis, just as it does normally. Sorry if I confused you.

As you said yourself, I think this almost makes sneak attack damage too powerful. I want a system in which taking a potentially fatal physical wound is always a possibly but never a guarantee.

Yes, this one didn't work so well in-game, but I provided it as an option simply to show that it is an option. I'll never be using it again, that's for sure... though I do have a system for "damage dependent effects and vitality damage," if you're interested...

But I'm assuming you'll be using this system in D&D, like I do. If you are interested in hearing my idea, let me know and I'll start a threat about it.

Well I certainly wouldn't advocate it for all games but I do agree it's an awesome system. I also think it allows for more "realistic" modelling of injuries than the traditional hp system. Realistic probably isn't the best word to use because there is still a fair amount of "abstractness" but it definitely allows for more conditions and variations to be places on the types of injuries and level of damage that has been inflicted.

I do like what they've done with d20 Modern and MDT, but VP/WP will always hold that special place in my heart... *sniff*

 

[GlassJaw]

If you are interested in hearing my idea, let me know and I'll start a threat about it.

Go for it!

 

[HellHound]

Their system is: No Con bonus to HP (but Con bonus is added to any Heal checks made on the character). No max HP at first level. HP at first level is 1d6+3 to 1d6+6, and a fixed value varying by class of anywhere from 1 to 3 HP at further levels. It is meant to emulate how deadly combat is on the show, the main characters have anywhere from 6 to 29 HP.

Wow. My mind has been read and used.

This is how I've always intended to handle d20 modern games with deadly combat. In fact, I was talking about doing this back in 2002 for a Top Secret (the old TSR RPG) d20 conversion.