Sneak Attack Rogue Optimization help.

[Kor]

Those are all some more great ideas... I will be fleshing out the build in a couple days. Just a few random comments:

Penetrating Strike. I'm surprised that the Complete Divine's "Death's Ruin" alternative class feature was published, after Dungeonscape's "Penetrating Strike" alternative class feature. I think Penetrating strike is pretty much a no-brainer. Thanks for that suggestion.

Spring Attack. Also when I mentioned building a character that can jump into the front line... fight... and then withdraw, I meant withdrawing for safety's sake, likely on the next round after having been attacked. I think I gave the impression that I wanted to do a spring attack or such, which I don't. I'm also not taking Improved Initiative, as I want other party members to engage foes first, so I can just walk up beside them and start sneak attacking via adapatable / vexing flanker. (Sure it would be nice to pounce in and get a full attack, however for the sake of feat management, I would have to build either a pouncer or a two-weapon fighter... not both -- so I am sticking with a two-weapon fighter).

Craven. I was not aware of this feat. In many respects its definately a must, however preceding the Feat descriptions is: "Champions of Ruin introduces several feats of pure cruelty and evil. Characters devoted to dark gods or vicious means can use these feats to enhance their wicked power". I'm not sure if this is just flavor text, or whether its basically adding in a blanket requirement to be evil / vile to acquire any of the feats. I guess I could try to "justify" Craven in the sense that sneak attacking in its very essence could be defined as a "vicious means"?

Pure Rogue. I have always been of the mindset that pure rogue was the best rogue. The main disadvantages of the pure rogue is HP and BAB. I think that dipping into Swashbuckler for the increased BAB and HP, without loosing Sneak Attack damage via Daring Outlaw, is definately the way to go.

Rogue Skills. One of the fun elements of playing a rogue is their many skills. The party of course expects anyone playing a rogue to be their trap detector / lock picker / device disabler. In the early levels I think its very useful to have these skills, but in later levels there are magic items that can do the trick just fine -- so I think the change to Swashbuckler is probably for the best -- especially given my build direction?

Swordsage. Its a neat idea, but most DM's I play with won't touch the ToB with a 10' pole (or even with a collapsable one). Also I want the ability to gain the flank benefits continuously and on an unlimited basis... where-as if I read this class right, then I wouldn't.

Shield of Blades. This is the class replacement feature for Swashbucklers in PHB II - replacing the dodge bonus for +2 AC. This was a great suggestion, thanks.

Telling Blow. Although a great feat to have... its just one in a big list of many. As my plan would be to only engage foes where I get the benefit of using my adaptable/vexing flanker feats, Telling Blow would not be useful. Although I plan to stick with these two feats, I guess the alternative would be swapping them for Telling Blow and Improved Critical.

Disemboweling Strike. My plan is to make this the work-horse of my character. I should be able to drop enough of an opponent's CON quickly, that it should take him out of battle quickly. The combined CON loss along with lost HP's, plus the added damage I would be doing over top of the Strike, should do the trick and should (in theory) be better than doing pure damage? I think this is the one and only "Strike" feat that I should need -- better than the others such as "Crippling Strike". (Not that Crippling Strike isn't good -- its just that with being so feat heavy, I have to pick and choose carefully, so I think sticking with one Strike is best).

Fighter Variant. Someone had suggested this, although I think they made reference to the PHBII, whereas this is included in UA. The Thug Variant, combined with the Fighter Class Variant (pg 58 -- I can never usually find this when I am looking for it). This will give you a fighter who gains 4 skill points, good BAB progression and sneak attack every 2nd level instead of feats. Although I had been considering it, I realized that Swashbuckler + Daring Outlaw gave me all that plus more.

Thanks for all the suggestions, they have been very helpful!

 

[Darklone]

Ehem... one more thing: You might start with one level of Scout if you can spare a feat later. Then go all your roguishness, it won't disturb the trapspringing anyhow. Still, as soon as you can take Swift Ambusher (and Imp skirmish), you'll have the real nice option to use skirmish (one big hit and tumble away) if the opponent has concealment or if you don't want to risk to eat another full attack action from him. It costs you one level and one feat (two with Improved Skirmish) and you'll have full skirmish damage. But check the feat, it might be that you need more scout levels... perhaps 3. If that's the case, take 4 and you'll get a bonus feat

Don't take more than three levels swashbuckler... All you want is Insightful strike if you're not interested in increasing the alternate class features.

 

[Jack Simth]

Unfortunately your build mostly ignores the instances when you do not win initiative (which will happen), or when you cannot see your opponent during the first round, or your have negatives to your ranged attack (which will happen - like if you have an ally in front of you, and your opponent is in melee range of an ally, sucking up a big -8 to attack which negates the fact that it's a touch attack, or if your opponent is at a range more distant than your standard throwing range or even outside 30'), or when you have more than one opponent (which will happen often) or your opponent being immune or resistant to the thing you choose to initially attack with (which will happen) or your opponent not going down in the first attack.

The write-up mostly does - the build itself doesn't. Produce Flame can be used either at range or in melee - the spell includes both capabilities. If Ranged Sneak Attack isn't an option, that's okay. Additionally, he's got two wands listed on there that are explicitly melee - Chill Touch and Flame Blade.

He's also got lots of ranks in UMD - so if the situation calls for a Wand of Fireball, or Scorching Ray, or whatever, he can use those, too.

First Choice is usually going to be the Flasks of Acid or Alchemist's Fire. As these are Quickdrawn for each throw, and RAW you get to see the results of your first strike before committing to the next - if Acid doesn't work, switch to Fire (and vice-versa). Produce Flame, by its description, will not harm your equipment - so technically, even if he's got the flames in hand, he can draw another wand or a flask with no issues, RAW.

Outside 30 feet, most rogues are up a creek anyway. If it happens, though, well, there's other options - he's got UMD, and I didn't fill out all his equipment (for that matter, I didn't even list a race). Scrolls and Wands are both pretty useful.

Plus he's got shortswords for when all else fails - and the Weapon Finess to work with them.

In other words, you have no good way to get a sneak attack bonus outside of the first strike situation. Nothing to help you flank.

A Rogue stuck in melee without an ally is a dead rogue anyway. He is designed for a party environment. But he can do flanking melee, if he needs to (it's not healthy, though).

Nothing to help you deny your opponent their dex bonus other than when they are flat-footed on winning initiative, and not enough money (because you are burning gold on every single attack) to afford things like a wand of improved invisibility. Grease is actually one of my favorites, though; anything without at least 5 ranks in Balance is considered flat-footed while Balancing, Grease forces Balance checks, ... and almost nothing has actual ranks in Balance.

He's burning gold on each attack, yes, and that might pose a problem up until about level 5 or so (if wealth by level is followed) but the cash saved on not usually needing weapon enhancements will normally cover it. He may not be getting them quite as soon as a "normal" rogue, but he should be able to get them without too much trouble.

Mind you, I think your build is interesting, and useful. Just pointing out some flaws.

It's not perfect - to a degree that's by design; the perfect build gets a visit from the Flying Cow Brigade (they mostly fall - and squish cheesy characters). Interesting and useful, while maximizing Sneak Attack (which, for the most part, this build, skeletal as it is, does) is the idea.

Maybe a level of Barbarian for speed and weapon proficiency, and maxing out tumble, to get into position to flank? Or carry a longspear to attack with reach (which gives you more flanking spots)? Or maxing hide and move silent, and making sure you have the Complete Adventurer rules down for moving away from hiding to make a melee attack that treats your opponent as flat footed? Or something to help get sneak attack after the first strike attacks.

It's a skeletal build, yes; most of that could be done without compromising the core build at all.

 

[AnonymousOne]

I don't know if your DM allows non-WotC books ... buuuut
Mongoose Publishing - Quintessential Rogue

Improved Sneak Attack - your d6s become d8s

 

[glass]

Accademic if your DM won't allow it, but:

Also I want the ability to gain the flank benefits continuously and on an unlimited basis... where-as if I read this class right, then I wouldn't.

I don't think you are reading it right. Firstly, you can stay in the Island of Blades stance all day every day, if you like. Secondly, AFAICT nothing about the stance precludes you from using the normal flanking rules (with a reach weapon, for example), it just adds extra positions that count as flanking.

Out of curiosity, what limitations/discontinuities are you seeing that I haven't?


glass.

 

[Kor]

I don't think you are reading it right. Firstly, you can stay in the Island of Blades stance all day every day, if you like. Secondly, AFAICT nothing about the stance precludes you from using the normal flanking rules (with a reach weapon, for example), it just adds extra positions that count as flanking.

Out of curiosity, what limitations/discontinuities are you seeing that I haven't?

Okay I've read through ToB a little more. I thought Island of Blades was a maveuver. Although my DM won't let me use ToB material (I can't say that I blame him), I definately agree that 1 level of some ToB class to get the Island of Blades stance would be the best optimization of the build I am looking for.

Why Swordsage though? Sure it gives a +1 to initiative (which isn't crucial when the Island of Blades stance is chose), but at the reduction of BAB. The Crusader looks like the better way to go for me, in that I want to keep the BAB up. Is there something about the Swordsage that better leads towards my build that I am not seeing?

 

[Shazman]

Nightsong enforcer from Complete Adventurer gives a +1d6 sneak attack and +1 BAB at first level. I think it requires Improved Initiative and lots of skill ranks, which shouldn't be a problem for you. Some Tome of Battle feats or even swordsage levels can really help this character out. Take a look at the martial study (some shadow hand maneuver) and martial stance (assassains's stance) feats. Then pick up shadow blade. While in assassain's stance and using a shadow hand weapon (short sword, dagger, spiked chain, unarmed strike, etc.) you get to add your dex to damage and get an extra 2d6 sneak attack dice.

 

[SteveC]

Just a couple of quick points that won't be as useful as they might since I'm away from my books . For a good sneak attack character, you need to be able to deal with critters that are immune to sneak attack. I believe that Dungeonscape has a class feature that substitutes for your trap sense ability (important: that's trap sense, not trapfinding!) which lets you do half sneak attack versus undead.

There is also a feat (from complete scoundrel if I'm remembering correctly) that lets you do sneak attack damage on any critical hit. Combining that with a rapier makes for extra sneak attack goodness quite often!

There is a rogue in a mostly undead campaign I'm playing in that has been far more effective than any of the fighers with these abilities (well, that and the Magic Stone spell).

--Steve

 

[Darklone]

There is also a feat (from complete scoundrel if I'm remembering correctly) that lets you do sneak attack damage on any critical hit. Combining that with a rapier makes for extra sneak attack goodness quite often!

Telling Blow, PHB2.

Dragon Magic has that nice feat that turns your sneak attack damage into elemental damage.

 

[evermind]

Should this not have been mentioned before

Deadly Precision (XPH) - reroll all your rolls of "1" on Sneak damage dice" : req Dex 15, BAB 5+
Might improve the overall yield some

"Shadowthief of Amn"-PrC (FR PlGui) - first three levels yield +2D6 Sneak damage, Bonus Feat (WFoc and W Finesse are possibilities), some nifty boni to diplomacy, bluff and leadership, Imp. uncanny dodge option. Taking all 5 levels = +3D6 Sneak, 2 Bonus Feats, more skill boni. evry easy to qualify for (some skills, + guild membership)


Heart seeker amulet (MIComp) 3000gp, turns strike into melee touch attack 3/day, swift action to activate; virtually guarantees a hit

"Blurstrike" +2 weapon-enhancement, opponent considered flattfooted for first attack that round after activation of power, works 10/day; swift action to activate; MIComp p 32

"Deadly Precision" +1 weapon-enhancement, add +1D6 to any sneak or swift strike damage if you have that feature; always activated; MIComp p 33

"Eager" +1 weapon-enhancement, add +2 to initiativeand +2 to damge during surprise round and first round of combat ; always activated; MIComp p 34 (if you have money to burn )


For "Sneak damage vs. undead" : Weapon Augment Crystal "truedeath, greater" Requires +3 weapon, costs 10000gp . Can be attached to any melee weapon. +1d6 damage vs. undead, ghost touch weapon, and weapon can deliver Sneak damage and critical hits - use a Kukri or Rapier....

For "Sneak damage vs constructs" : Weapon Augmentation Crystal "Demolition, greater", requires +3 weapon, costs 6000gp; +1D6 Damage vs. constructs, weapon treated as admantine for DR purposes, and weapon can deliver Sneak damage and critical hits.

no idea what to do about elementals, oozes and slimes.... the last great challengers...

Weapon Augment crystal can be exchanged with a move action ( MIComp. p 221 )

Advice for additional nastiness - take "Imp Unarmed Combat" Feat, then waltz up to anyone, unarmed and weaponless and kill him/her/it with your pinky ! Great trick for party stories !