Sneak Attacks on Rays

[the Jester]

My take on this whole thing:

First off, be nice, everyone, we're all here for the same reasons. Don't bite! (Unless someone wants you to.)

Now, about the topic at hand: when 3e first came out the sneak attack rules made me very nervous. They were clearly superior to the old backstab rules.

After watching them in play, both as a dm and as a player, I have to say they're fine.

As for sneak attacks through touch spells, rays, etc: the thing about touch attacks is that they IGNORE armor. You don't have to be able to "slip it under the breastplate" to sneak attack someone's chest or lungs with a shocking grasp. You touch their breastplate and the shock goes right through. That ray of frost might hit my codpiece but my nuts get really cold regardless. You can shoot that acid arrow at the fighter's visor and it splashes through the seams and slits.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think the key to visualizing this is that the ray or whatnot GOES RIGHT THROUGH the armor as if it wasn't there. That's my take on it, anyway.

As to the issue of a rogue with one level of sorcerer... keep in mind that this guy trades 6 skill points, slows down his evasion, sneak attack, uncanny dodge and high level special abilities, and, unless he keeps multiclassing the best he's gonna do for base spell damage is 1d4+1 (with a magic missile). So what if he can cast a ton of rays of frost? There are so many things that are immune to cold- and so many immune to critical hits (and therefore sneak attack)- that I don't think the tactic is breaking anything.

But ultimately, there's this thing in the very beginning of the PH that says, "It's your game, run it your way." It's called Rule 0. I agree that lots of house rules are bad (at least if you're running a "standard" dnd campaign) but even I have some house rules.. about four or something, I think

Tallyho.

 

[kreynolds]

Now, about the topic at hand: when 3e first came out the sneak attack rules made me very nervous. They were clearly superior to the old backstab rules.

Actually, they weren't superior. The old rules just sucked.

But ultimately, there's this thing in the very beginning of the PH that says, "It's your game, run it your way." It's called Rule 0.

Very strange that it would found in the PH.

 

[Bobbystopholes]

"Spells that inflict energy drain or ability damage deal additional negative energy damage on a sneak attack, An enhancement penalty really does NOT equal ability damage. No matter how much you want it too "

How is ability damage different than an an enhancement penalty? They seem the same to me. If enervation does negative damage, then why not Ray of Enfeeblement?

*drinks potion of Flame and Name Calling Resistance*

 

[AGGEMAM]

How is ability damage different than an an enhancement penalty? They seem the same to me.

An enhancement penalty cannot be healed or cured by anything short of a wish/miracle spell.

An enhancement penalty is the opposite of an enhancement bonus, but you have note each separately, and add them together to get your final ability score.

 

[Ristamar]

An enhancement penalty cannot be healed or cured by anything short of a wish/miracle spell.

Eh? Um... or you could just wait for the duration to wear out? Or cast Dispel Magic? Or enter an antimagic field? Or...

Am I missing something here?

 

[AGGEMAM]

Eh? Um... or you could just wait for the duration to wear out? Or cast Dispel Magic? Or enter an antimagic field? Or...

Am I missing something here?

What if it were permanent ?

What if it were an instantenous spell ?

 

[drowdude]

How is ability damage different than an an enhancement penalty? They seem the same to me. If enervation does negative damage, then why not Ray of Enfeeblement?

*drinks potion of Flame and Name Calling Resistance*

Ability damage lasts until the victim until healed (through rest or magic); ability damage represents actual, physical damage to the target.

An enhancement penalty on the other hand only persists for the duration of the spell and is subject to being dispelled; an enhancement penalty inflicts no real damage on the targets body, it creates a magical effect the saps a victim's Strength.


And Enervation specifically states that it's effect is generated via negative energy. Ray of Enfeeblement does not.

 

[Storm Raven]

First, I think the bigger issue is the rogue with a wand of ray of frost or one level of sor granting him something like 10 RoF per day. Wands are cheap and UMD works really well.

I think you have missed some important limitations on using things like Ray of Frost with sneak attacks.

One is that you can only do this when the opponent is flat footed, otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, or helpless. Flanking is not an option, since flanking only kicks in when you are making a melee attack. (Look up the description of flanking in the PHB if you need to). This sort of situation is likely to occur very rarely.

Second, you cannot get multiple attacks with a Ray of Frost. You get one per round. For a high level rogue with a shortbow and perhaps rapid shot, that is a huge amount of increased damage potential in ranged situations when compared to his rogue/mage counterpart with his wussy Ray of Frost.

For a high level rogue at all, let alone a high level rogue who has gone the two weapon route, using the Ray of Frost trick is clearly an option with less damage potential.

Sure, the touch attack issue makes it more likely you will hit with your one attack than with any one of a standard rogue's multiple attacks, but they are probably more likely to get a hit in in general, and more able to deal out lots of damage if they get lucky.

It balances out when you actually work through the analysis.

 

[Ristamar]

What if it were permanent ?

What if it were an instantenous spell ?

Despite the fact that no such permanent/instantaneous 'enhancement penalty' delivering spells exist in the PHB, save for one I can think of, (in regard to Duration), would it really even matter? An enhancement penalty is basically a negative 'bonus', and think of how easy it is to strip away those bonuses.

If you're referring to Bestow Curse, that has its own special set of rules and does not apply to all enhancement penalties.

 

[drowdude]

What if it were permanent ?

What if it were an instantenous spell ?

But it's not... and it isnt...


And I believe that even if you were under some sort of curse that permanently inflicted an enhancement penalty on you, that it could be removed in the same manner as Bestow Curse. It would also cease to affect you in an anti-magic area, just as an enhancment bonus does...